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You’re welcome to use App Store apps... I don’t see the problem. Safari PWAs protect your privacy better than native apps, because Safari trusts no one. The Ap

You’re welcome to use App Store apps... I don’t see the problem. Safari PWAs protect your privacy better than native apps, because Safari trusts no one. The App Store review process is trying to find a malicious needle in a haystack because iOS by default trusts native apps more than it should, due to the existence of that nebulous review process. Apple is slowly locking down native apps with each successive iOS version... but PWAs have always been extremely private, and they're still the gold standard as far as I've seen. PWAs are actually completely isolated from each other and from the rest of Safari, so there is no cross-contamination for tracking purposes. If you don’t want more choice and more privacy... that’s up to you. I really don’t know what to tell you. PWAs aren't the "wild west" that sideloading apps would be, yet you're trying to use the classic anti-sideloading argument against PWAs, and that argument simply doesn't work here. Apple has supported PWAs since before there was even an Apple App Store for native apps! PWAs already exist, and PWAs are already extremely private. Apple just needs to give PWAs push notification support. Users would still have complete control over notifications, just like any native app. Apple heavily pushes native apps because of the profit they get from it, not because of concerns about user privacy. They have already built Safari to protect your privacy on the open web.

Spivak 6y ago
I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. This seems to be the big disconnect about alternative app stores or distribution methods. It doesn't enable user choice unless every app is available on every store. It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses.
- coder543 6y ago
  > I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. If I never release it for iOS at all, you're also not welcome to buy it through the App Store! See how that works? The developer/publisher obviously does get a say in what happens to their app... this is not even slightly shocking. Apple can't force me to develop and release an app for the App Store, which is what you seem to be hoping? However, there are many publishers competing for your attention. You have a choice, and many of those developers will always choose to use the App Store, since a lot of users browse the App Store. Users vote with their wallets, and developers who don't publish on the App Store would be keenly aware of the uphill battle they might have in convincing users to download their PWA. > It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses. Android has supported both sideloading and PWAs with push notifications for many years. Ever notice how the Google Play Store isn't a ghost town? Most Android users still only download apps through the Google Play Store. This is fine -- the users have made their choice, and that's the important thing. Your doomsday, slippery slope hypothesis of developers vacating the Play Store en masse never occurred on Android. It seems equally unlikely to occur on iOS, unless Apple seriously mismanages their App Store. Still, users and developers should have the choice for meaningful apps to be distributed as PWAs, which essentially requires push notification support.
dnh44 6y ago
You make good points and I've learned something about PWA's, thanks. You also acknowledge that it's in Apple's interest to push native, which is absolutely true. The only thing I would disagree with is that you think "Apple just needs to give PWA developers [...]" when Apple does not "need" to do such a thing at all. This isn't just for the cut Apple takes from App Store sales. It's also about differentiating their operating system and hardware from competitors products too. Operating system and hardware matter a lot less if the battlefield is the browser. So I think the argument that native apps are key and essential to Apple's existence is a sound one. Google for example is pulling in a totally different direction, towards a world where only Chrome matters. In China, it appears that WeChat won that battle already. I think it's great having so many different and opposing visions for what computing may look like. It would be a great tragedy if we ever ended up in a situation where there was only one remaining vision of what computing should be (unless maybe it was RMS's vision, which I think would be pretty good). Because of that, I think it would be a mistake for Apple to act against its own interest by giving PWA's any kind of breathing room. Also I may be wrong, but I suspect that users don't really care for or about PWA's, and that the only people who want push notifications for PWA's are PWA developers.
- coder543 6y ago
  > You make good points and I've learned something about PWA's, thanks. You also acknowledge that it's in Apple's interest to push native, which is absolutely true. The only thing I would disagree with is that you think "Apple just needs to give PWA developers [...]" when Apple does not "need" to do such a thing at all. Your whole comment is predicated on the interpretation of one word. Apple just needs to support push notifications for PWAs if they want to make PWAs useful and competitive, and it would be helpful for Apple in the antitrust battles that they seem to be facing. That's what I meant by "need". Previously, Apple also needed to add offline support, but they eventually did... so now that isn't a "need" for PWAs to be useful and competitive, even if Apple's offline support for PWAs is limited. Apple doesn't "need" to implement it from whatever abstract interpretation of the word "need" that you're using... I'm not saying Apple will starve to death if they don't implement it -- it isn't a fundamental business "need" that they currently have. They should do it, and I really want them to do it.

Spivak 6y ago

I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. This seems to be the big disconnect about alternative app stores or distribution methods. It doesn't enable user choice unless every app is available on every store. It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses.

coder543 6y ago
> I'm not welcome to buy your app on the App Store though. If I never release it for iOS at all, you're also not welcome to buy it through the App Store! See how that works? The developer/publisher obviously does get a say in what happens to their app... this is not even slightly shocking. Apple can't force me to develop and release an app for the App Store, which is what you seem to be hoping? However, there are many publishers competing for your attention. You have a choice, and many of those developers will always choose to use the App Store, since a lot of users browse the App Store. Users vote with their wallets, and developers who don't publish on the App Store would be keenly aware of the uphill battle they might have in convincing users to download their PWA. > It enables publisher choice and creates this loop where publishers who have a customer bases just move to the store with the fewest restrictions and fees. It's a race to the bottom where the user loses. Android has supported both sideloading and PWAs with push notifications for many years. Ever notice how the Google Play Store isn't a ghost town? Most Android users still only download apps through the Google Play Store. This is fine -- the users have made their choice, and that's the important thing. Your doomsday, slippery slope hypothesis of developers vacating the Play Store en masse never occurred on Android. It seems equally unlikely to occur on iOS, unless Apple seriously mismanages their App Store. Still, users and developers should have the choice for meaningful apps to be distributed as PWAs, which essentially requires push notification support.

dnh44 6y ago

You make good points and I've learned something about PWA's, thanks. You also acknowledge that it's in Apple's interest to push native, which is absolutely true. The only thing I would disagree with is that you think "Apple just needs to give PWA developers [...]" when Apple does not "need" to do such a thing at all. This isn't just for the cut Apple takes from App Store sales. It's also about differentiating their operating system and hardware from competitors products too. Operating system and hardware matter a lot less if the battlefield is the browser. So I think the argument that native apps are key and essential to Apple's existence is a sound one. Google for example is pulling in a totally different direction, towards a world where only Chrome matters. In China, it appears that WeChat won that battle already. I think it's great having so many different and opposing visions for what computing may look like. It would be a great tragedy if we ever ended up in a situation where there was only one remaining vision of what computing should be (unless maybe it was RMS's vision, which I think would be pretty good). Because of that, I think it would be a mistake for Apple to act against its own interest by giving PWA's any kind of breathing room. Also I may be wrong, but I suspect that users don't really care for or about PWA's, and that the only people who want push notifications for PWA's are PWA developers.

coder543 6y ago
> You make good points and I've learned something about PWA's, thanks. You also acknowledge that it's in Apple's interest to push native, which is absolutely true. The only thing I would disagree with is that you think "Apple just needs to give PWA developers [...]" when Apple does not "need" to do such a thing at all. Your whole comment is predicated on the interpretation of one word. Apple just needs to support push notifications for PWAs if they want to make PWAs useful and competitive, and it would be helpful for Apple in the antitrust battles that they seem to be facing. That's what I meant by "need". Previously, Apple also needed to add offline support, but they eventually did... so now that isn't a "need" for PWAs to be useful and competitive, even if Apple's offline support for PWAs is limited. Apple doesn't "need" to implement it from whatever abstract interpretation of the word "need" that you're using... I'm not saying Apple will starve to death if they don't implement it -- it isn't a fundamental business "need" that they currently have. They should do it, and I really want them to do it.