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> they can convince regulators they will self-regulate... while continuing to get a third of the revenue from all the most lucrative developers. So what? Seri

> they can convince regulators they will self-regulate... while continuing to get a third of the revenue from all the most lucrative developers. So what? Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? At that scale, the 30% is such a terrible thorn in your side? Come on. Cry me a damn river. The 'narrative' here is Epic pretending they care about anyone except themselves and that this ridiculous song and dance is about it being 'good for everyone'. Let's try something positive instead: What should they have done then to make you happy? Seriously; if this is such a cynical, terrible move, what should they have done?

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
> Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? The narrative here is amazing, because you're not sympathizing with Epic because they're so big and have so much money... but they're still the little guy compared to Apple. The scale of Apple's monopoly profit makes Epic look like a corner pharmacy in Montana.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  "Little guy"? Epic is fore casting earning something like 5 billion dollars this financial year. You'll have to try a bit harder to get a bit of sympathy for them than 'they're smaller than apple'. ... 5 billion dollars. ... And you want me to care that another company is shaking you down for a couple of million? Boo hoo. Poor epic. I wonder how they pay the bills. Oh, I know! They use some that 5 billion dollars they made to do it. -- I think maybe there are some, you know, real people, who will get some tangible benefits from these rate cuts. If Epic loses out.. or... you know, if they get them too? Really, it makes no difference to them at all. So.. I really. Do. Not. Care.
  - psahgal 6y ago
    You are correct that Epic Games made 5 billion dollars in revenue in 2019, according to Venturebeat [1]. However, Apple Insider reports that Apple made 59.7 billion dollars in revenue in their third fiscal quarter (March, April, and May) of 2020 [2]. Epic's definitely not a little guy, but compared to Apple, it looks more like a respectable medium-sized company. I find Apple's revenue numbers and market value truly staggering. Few companies seem to be able to compare. [1] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-seeking-to-sell-stake-for-750-million-at-17-billion-valuation https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-from-apples-q4-2020-earnings-report-on-oct-29 https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-fr...
    - zepto 6y ago
      Apple is the largest company in the world and sells the most successful product in human history. Of course nobody ‘compares’. But compared to almost any other iOS developer Epic is a giant.
      - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves: They're using those billions to fight for not just themselves, but thousands of smaller developers. Over two hundred of them joined Epic's little "app dev union" of sorts recently. Yes, Apple sells one of the most successful products in human history... and they also illegally use that power to control the market and extract revenue from thousands of other companies who have no choice but to do business with them.
        zepto 6y ago
        “ And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves” False: Epic wants to pay less commission themselves, and to be able to take a cut of other developers work. One big difference between Apple and Epic is that Epic didn’t do any work to create the platform. As to those smaller developers. Apple just cut the commission for them in half. A lower level than Epic was promising. Apple seems to care about the smaller developers. Epic is not fighting for anyone but themselves. Let’s note that more than half of Epic’s profits belong to just one man.
      - psahgal 6y ago
        I think Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, and Google would also be considered iOS developers, since they publish apps on the App Store. So in terms of market value, Epic is definitely not the biggest player in the Apple ecosystem. Although, if we're going by how popular the apps are on the store...I could see how Epic would be considered a heavyweight on the App Store.
- zepto 6y ago
  Epic is part of TenCent which is close to having a monopoly on games these days. But separately, the only reason to root for ‘the little guy’ is if the little guy is somehow hard done by. We dislike the fact that Apple makes some money by charging developers 30% for payment services, software delivery, and operating a storefront that users feel safe to buy from. We say 30% is too much to change for that, because the margin is way too high. Fair enough. Epic on the other hand makes its money from selling in game currency to children. That practice needs to be banned altogether.
  - anchpop 6y ago
    TenCent has a stake in Epic but Tim Sweeney still is the majority shareholder
    - zepto 6y ago
      Epic has a 40% stake, and controls Epic’s access to the Chinese market. There may be other rights attached to their share. Sweeney may technically still have the majority vote, but he can’t do anything they seriously oppose, or not do anything they are strongly in favor of without facing serious consequences.
      - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        This is entirely false. Because while Blizzard, the NBA, and every other "American" company was busy sucking up to China in the last year, Tim Sweeney blatantly stated players in his games should feel free to support Hong Kong. Epic didn't bow to China like other American companies did. And Epic didn't even stay silent. Epic made a clear statement in opposition to China. That should've put to bed any of this silly "it's controlled by China" nonsense. Tencent just likes having a good stake in a company that prints money.
        zepto 6y ago
        If there is any part of what I said that is false. I invite you to point it out. Support Hong Kong? How is that in opposition to China? Hong Kong is part of China, and I’m pretty sure the Chinese government thinks of itself as supporting Hong Kong. All Sweeney actually did was make some carefully worded statements about free speech and said that they wouldn’t filter messages on their platform. He made no statement encouraging support of any particular political stance.
kmeisthax 6y ago
Provide an officially-sanctioned way to install alternative software sources. macOS has that; Apple will even certify third party developers so that the system can still validate software outside of the Mac App Store. That kind of security model would be perfect for iOS and would moot pretty much all the substantive parts of Epic's complaint.
- beagle3 6y ago
  They have an officially sanctioned way. Reinstall every 7 days without cost, or pay $100/year and you don’t need to reinstall. It’s not as convenient as the main store, of course, but there are convenience tools (altstore.io) that make it close.
  - kmeisthax 6y ago
    I have and use AltStore. It's amazing what they did, but it's certainly not Apple-sanctioned; they have to jump through a large amount of hoops in order to get your code signing certificate and then get iTunes to install the app for you. This also requires giving AltStore your iCloud password, among other things, and it resigns the app as yours. It technically works, but it doesn't work well.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  Just because it is something YOU want doesn't mean we ALL want it. I appreciate Apple's review of apps and their store policies. While no human endeavor is perfect it is at least an attempt to keep their platform more secure, safer for kids, higher quality, and more trustworthy. Opening up the platform to other app stores means they have less control over the experience on their platform it opens more avenues for malware. If you want a more open platform use Android.
  - Mindwipe 6y ago
    Safer for kids who aren't in Hong Kong, presumably. A single source of application signing will always be abused to entrench dangerous governments and prejudice. It is toxic, and needs to be outlawed.
throwaway3699 6y ago
If epic can spend 50 million to receive and extra "5 bzilionty" dollars plus excellent PR, that's bloody good business.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

> Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? The narrative here is amazing, because you're not sympathizing with Epic because they're so big and have so much money... but they're still the little guy compared to Apple. The scale of Apple's monopoly profit makes Epic look like a corner pharmacy in Montana.

wokwokwok 6y ago
"Little guy"? Epic is fore casting earning something like 5 billion dollars this financial year. You'll have to try a bit harder to get a bit of sympathy for them than 'they're smaller than apple'. ... 5 billion dollars. ... And you want me to care that another company is shaking you down for a couple of million? Boo hoo. Poor epic. I wonder how they pay the bills. Oh, I know! They use some that 5 billion dollars they made to do it. -- I think maybe there are some, you know, real people, who will get some tangible benefits from these rate cuts. If Epic loses out.. or... you know, if they get them too? Really, it makes no difference to them at all. So.. I really. Do. Not. Care.
- psahgal 6y ago
  You are correct that Epic Games made 5 billion dollars in revenue in 2019, according to Venturebeat [1]. However, Apple Insider reports that Apple made 59.7 billion dollars in revenue in their third fiscal quarter (March, April, and May) of 2020 [2]. Epic's definitely not a little guy, but compared to Apple, it looks more like a respectable medium-sized company. I find Apple's revenue numbers and market value truly staggering. Few companies seem to be able to compare. [1] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-seeking-to-sell-stake-for-750-million-at-17-billion-valuation https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-from-apples-q4-2020-earnings-report-on-oct-29 https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-fr...
  - zepto 6y ago
    Apple is the largest company in the world and sells the most successful product in human history. Of course nobody ‘compares’. But compared to almost any other iOS developer Epic is a giant.
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves: They're using those billions to fight for not just themselves, but thousands of smaller developers. Over two hundred of them joined Epic's little "app dev union" of sorts recently. Yes, Apple sells one of the most successful products in human history... and they also illegally use that power to control the market and extract revenue from thousands of other companies who have no choice but to do business with them.
      - zepto 6y ago
        “ And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves” False: Epic wants to pay less commission themselves, and to be able to take a cut of other developers work. One big difference between Apple and Epic is that Epic didn’t do any work to create the platform. As to those smaller developers. Apple just cut the commission for them in half. A lower level than Epic was promising. Apple seems to care about the smaller developers. Epic is not fighting for anyone but themselves. Let’s note that more than half of Epic’s profits belong to just one man.
    - psahgal 6y ago
      I think Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, and Google would also be considered iOS developers, since they publish apps on the App Store. So in terms of market value, Epic is definitely not the biggest player in the Apple ecosystem. Although, if we're going by how popular the apps are on the store...I could see how Epic would be considered a heavyweight on the App Store.
zepto 6y ago
Epic is part of TenCent which is close to having a monopoly on games these days. But separately, the only reason to root for ‘the little guy’ is if the little guy is somehow hard done by. We dislike the fact that Apple makes some money by charging developers 30% for payment services, software delivery, and operating a storefront that users feel safe to buy from. We say 30% is too much to change for that, because the margin is way too high. Fair enough. Epic on the other hand makes its money from selling in game currency to children. That practice needs to be banned altogether.
- anchpop 6y ago
  TenCent has a stake in Epic but Tim Sweeney still is the majority shareholder
  - zepto 6y ago
    Epic has a 40% stake, and controls Epic’s access to the Chinese market. There may be other rights attached to their share. Sweeney may technically still have the majority vote, but he can’t do anything they seriously oppose, or not do anything they are strongly in favor of without facing serious consequences.
    - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
      This is entirely false. Because while Blizzard, the NBA, and every other "American" company was busy sucking up to China in the last year, Tim Sweeney blatantly stated players in his games should feel free to support Hong Kong. Epic didn't bow to China like other American companies did. And Epic didn't even stay silent. Epic made a clear statement in opposition to China. That should've put to bed any of this silly "it's controlled by China" nonsense. Tencent just likes having a good stake in a company that prints money.
      - zepto 6y ago
        If there is any part of what I said that is false. I invite you to point it out. Support Hong Kong? How is that in opposition to China? Hong Kong is part of China, and I’m pretty sure the Chinese government thinks of itself as supporting Hong Kong. All Sweeney actually did was make some carefully worded statements about free speech and said that they wouldn’t filter messages on their platform. He made no statement encouraging support of any particular political stance.

kmeisthax 6y ago

Provide an officially-sanctioned way to install alternative software sources. macOS has that; Apple will even certify third party developers so that the system can still validate software outside of the Mac App Store. That kind of security model would be perfect for iOS and would moot pretty much all the substantive parts of Epic's complaint.

beagle3 6y ago
They have an officially sanctioned way. Reinstall every 7 days without cost, or pay $100/year and you don’t need to reinstall. It’s not as convenient as the main store, of course, but there are convenience tools (altstore.io) that make it close.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  I have and use AltStore. It's amazing what they did, but it's certainly not Apple-sanctioned; they have to jump through a large amount of hoops in order to get your code signing certificate and then get iTunes to install the app for you. This also requires giving AltStore your iCloud password, among other things, and it resigns the app as yours. It technically works, but it doesn't work well.
macinjosh 6y ago
Just because it is something YOU want doesn't mean we ALL want it. I appreciate Apple's review of apps and their store policies. While no human endeavor is perfect it is at least an attempt to keep their platform more secure, safer for kids, higher quality, and more trustworthy. Opening up the platform to other app stores means they have less control over the experience on their platform it opens more avenues for malware. If you want a more open platform use Android.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  Safer for kids who aren't in Hong Kong, presumably. A single source of application signing will always be abused to entrench dangerous governments and prejudice. It is toxic, and needs to be outlawed.

throwaway3699 6y ago

If epic can spend 50 million to receive and extra "5 bzilionty" dollars plus excellent PR, that's bloody good business.