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If Apple didn't fear either Epic's lawsuit or Congressional action, or both, they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. This announcement means

If Apple didn't fear either Epic's lawsuit or Congressional action, or both, they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. This announcement means Apple knows that neither public opinion nor the law is on their side and they're about to lose really, really big. And they're hoping if they can flip this around a bit and get control of the narrative, they can convince regulators they will self-regulate... while continuing to get a third of the revenue from all the most lucrative developers. Google's new Gmail privacy settings fall in the same boat: They'd rather lose data from a small portion of their users if it might deter the government from taking away all of it.

kbutler 6y ago
> they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. Why not 50%? 75%? 100%? 150%? It could also be that they are seeking the optimal rate of return, balancing developer incentives, bringing in new developers, etc. I think many factors play into the decision, including lawsuits and public scrutiny. I think it will be really interesting to watch and see if google mirrors the pricing.
wokwokwok 6y ago
> they can convince regulators they will self-regulate... while continuing to get a third of the revenue from all the most lucrative developers. So what? Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? At that scale, the 30% is such a terrible thorn in your side? Come on. Cry me a damn river. The 'narrative' here is Epic pretending they care about anyone except themselves and that this ridiculous song and dance is about it being 'good for everyone'. Let's try something positive instead: What should they have done then to make you happy? Seriously; if this is such a cynical, terrible move, what should they have done?
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  > Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? The narrative here is amazing, because you're not sympathizing with Epic because they're so big and have so much money... but they're still the little guy compared to Apple. The scale of Apple's monopoly profit makes Epic look like a corner pharmacy in Montana.
  - wokwokwok 6y ago
    "Little guy"? Epic is fore casting earning something like 5 billion dollars this financial year. You'll have to try a bit harder to get a bit of sympathy for them than 'they're smaller than apple'. ... 5 billion dollars. ... And you want me to care that another company is shaking you down for a couple of million? Boo hoo. Poor epic. I wonder how they pay the bills. Oh, I know! They use some that 5 billion dollars they made to do it. -- I think maybe there are some, you know, real people, who will get some tangible benefits from these rate cuts. If Epic loses out.. or... you know, if they get them too? Really, it makes no difference to them at all. So.. I really. Do. Not. Care.
    - psahgal 6y ago
      You are correct that Epic Games made 5 billion dollars in revenue in 2019, according to Venturebeat [1]. However, Apple Insider reports that Apple made 59.7 billion dollars in revenue in their third fiscal quarter (March, April, and May) of 2020 [2]. Epic's definitely not a little guy, but compared to Apple, it looks more like a respectable medium-sized company. I find Apple's revenue numbers and market value truly staggering. Few companies seem to be able to compare. [1] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-seeking-to-sell-stake-for-750-million-at-17-billion-valuation https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-from-apples-q4-2020-earnings-report-on-oct-29 https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-fr...
      - zepto 6y ago
        Apple is the largest company in the world and sells the most successful product in human history. Of course nobody ‘compares’. But compared to almost any other iOS developer Epic is a giant.
        ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves: They're using those billions to fight for not just themselves, but thousands of smaller developers. Over two hundred of them joined Epic's little "app dev union" of sorts recently. Yes, Apple sells one of the most successful products in human history... and they also illegally use that power to control the market and extract revenue from thousands of other companies who have no choice but to do business with them.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  Provide an officially-sanctioned way to install alternative software sources. macOS has that; Apple will even certify third party developers so that the system can still validate software outside of the Mac App Store. That kind of security model would be perfect for iOS and would moot pretty much all the substantive parts of Epic's complaint.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    They have an officially sanctioned way. Reinstall every 7 days without cost, or pay $100/year and you don’t need to reinstall. It’s not as convenient as the main store, of course, but there are convenience tools (altstore.io) that make it close.
    - kmeisthax 6y ago
      I have and use AltStore. It's amazing what they did, but it's certainly not Apple-sanctioned; they have to jump through a large amount of hoops in order to get your code signing certificate and then get iTunes to install the app for you. This also requires giving AltStore your iCloud password, among other things, and it resigns the app as yours. It technically works, but it doesn't work well.
  - macinjosh 6y ago
    Just because it is something YOU want doesn't mean we ALL want it. I appreciate Apple's review of apps and their store policies. While no human endeavor is perfect it is at least an attempt to keep their platform more secure, safer for kids, higher quality, and more trustworthy. Opening up the platform to other app stores means they have less control over the experience on their platform it opens more avenues for malware. If you want a more open platform use Android.
    - Mindwipe 6y ago
      Safer for kids who aren't in Hong Kong, presumably. A single source of application signing will always be abused to entrench dangerous governments and prejudice. It is toxic, and needs to be outlawed.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  If epic can spend 50 million to receive and extra "5 bzilionty" dollars plus excellent PR, that's bloody good business.
zaroth 6y ago
> If Apple didn't fear either Epic's lawsuit or Congressional action, or both, they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. Except they have done exactly that in the past. In June 2016 Apple introduced a subscription billing model which reduces the fee to 15% after the first year a customer is subscribed.
- calcifer 6y ago
  I'm sure the developers of all 15 apps that sell multi-year subscriptions were very happy about that.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    Interestingly the top benefactor is Google, as YouTube is #1 for subscription revenue in 2019 according to TechCrunch. Subscription revenue on Apple's store was $3.6B of ~$50B in 2019, so 7.2% of app store revenue overall. It's absolutely true that Apple doesn't have a lot of pricing pressure on their 30% fee, since their platform is so compelling and especially since most competitor App Stores charge the same amount. But it's also absolutely false that they have never lowered their rate.
ecf 6y ago
Apple doesn’t fear Epic’s lawsuit for the merits of the lawsuit itself. Apple fears how Epic can use their devoted base of video game players to create a PR frenzy that turns the lawsuit into a popularity contest.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
  That is true for all lawsuits. The more damning implication is that Apple, one of the world's most highly valued brands, a brand name that has historically commanded 50%+ gross profit margins on commodity goods sold as luxury goods, is losing a 'popularity' contest to a video game company. Talk of changing times!

kbutler 6y ago

> they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. Why not 50%? 75%? 100%? 150%? It could also be that they are seeking the optimal rate of return, balancing developer incentives, bringing in new developers, etc. I think many factors play into the decision, including lawsuits and public scrutiny. I think it will be really interesting to watch and see if google mirrors the pricing.

wokwokwok 6y ago

> they can convince regulators they will self-regulate... while continuing to get a third of the revenue from all the most lucrative developers. So what? Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? At that scale, the 30% is such a terrible thorn in your side? Come on. Cry me a damn river. The 'narrative' here is Epic pretending they care about anyone except themselves and that this ridiculous song and dance is about it being 'good for everyone'. Let's try something positive instead: What should they have done then to make you happy? Seriously; if this is such a cynical, terrible move, what should they have done?

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
> Seriously, who cares if Epic earns 14 bzillionty dollars this month, or 20 bzillionty dollars? The narrative here is amazing, because you're not sympathizing with Epic because they're so big and have so much money... but they're still the little guy compared to Apple. The scale of Apple's monopoly profit makes Epic look like a corner pharmacy in Montana.
- wokwokwok 6y ago
  "Little guy"? Epic is fore casting earning something like 5 billion dollars this financial year. You'll have to try a bit harder to get a bit of sympathy for them than 'they're smaller than apple'. ... 5 billion dollars. ... And you want me to care that another company is shaking you down for a couple of million? Boo hoo. Poor epic. I wonder how they pay the bills. Oh, I know! They use some that 5 billion dollars they made to do it. -- I think maybe there are some, you know, real people, who will get some tangible benefits from these rate cuts. If Epic loses out.. or... you know, if they get them too? Really, it makes no difference to them at all. So.. I really. Do. Not. Care.
  - psahgal 6y ago
    You are correct that Epic Games made 5 billion dollars in revenue in 2019, according to Venturebeat [1]. However, Apple Insider reports that Apple made 59.7 billion dollars in revenue in their third fiscal quarter (March, April, and May) of 2020 [2]. Epic's definitely not a little guy, but compared to Apple, it looks more like a respectable medium-sized company. I find Apple's revenue numbers and market value truly staggering. Few companies seem to be able to compare. [1] https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-seeking-to-sell-stake-for-750-million-at-17-billion-valuation https://venturebeat.com/2020/06/15/epic-games-shareholders-s... [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-from-apples-q4-2020-earnings-report-on-oct-29 https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/10/26/what-to-expect-fr...
    - zepto 6y ago
      Apple is the largest company in the world and sells the most successful product in human history. Of course nobody ‘compares’. But compared to almost any other iOS developer Epic is a giant.
      - ocdtrekkie 6y ago
        And Epic isn't asking for a benefit for themselves: They're using those billions to fight for not just themselves, but thousands of smaller developers. Over two hundred of them joined Epic's little "app dev union" of sorts recently. Yes, Apple sells one of the most successful products in human history... and they also illegally use that power to control the market and extract revenue from thousands of other companies who have no choice but to do business with them.
kmeisthax 6y ago
Provide an officially-sanctioned way to install alternative software sources. macOS has that; Apple will even certify third party developers so that the system can still validate software outside of the Mac App Store. That kind of security model would be perfect for iOS and would moot pretty much all the substantive parts of Epic's complaint.
- beagle3 6y ago
  They have an officially sanctioned way. Reinstall every 7 days without cost, or pay $100/year and you don’t need to reinstall. It’s not as convenient as the main store, of course, but there are convenience tools (altstore.io) that make it close.
  - kmeisthax 6y ago
    I have and use AltStore. It's amazing what they did, but it's certainly not Apple-sanctioned; they have to jump through a large amount of hoops in order to get your code signing certificate and then get iTunes to install the app for you. This also requires giving AltStore your iCloud password, among other things, and it resigns the app as yours. It technically works, but it doesn't work well.
- macinjosh 6y ago
  Just because it is something YOU want doesn't mean we ALL want it. I appreciate Apple's review of apps and their store policies. While no human endeavor is perfect it is at least an attempt to keep their platform more secure, safer for kids, higher quality, and more trustworthy. Opening up the platform to other app stores means they have less control over the experience on their platform it opens more avenues for malware. If you want a more open platform use Android.
  - Mindwipe 6y ago
    Safer for kids who aren't in Hong Kong, presumably. A single source of application signing will always be abused to entrench dangerous governments and prejudice. It is toxic, and needs to be outlawed.
throwaway3699 6y ago
If epic can spend 50 million to receive and extra "5 bzilionty" dollars plus excellent PR, that's bloody good business.

zaroth 6y ago

> If Apple didn't fear either Epic's lawsuit or Congressional action, or both, they'd never reduce their app store cut, for anyone, ever. Except they have done exactly that in the past. In June 2016 Apple introduced a subscription billing model which reduces the fee to 15% after the first year a customer is subscribed.

calcifer 6y ago
I'm sure the developers of all 15 apps that sell multi-year subscriptions were very happy about that.
- zaroth 6y ago
  Interestingly the top benefactor is Google, as YouTube is #1 for subscription revenue in 2019 according to TechCrunch. Subscription revenue on Apple's store was $3.6B of ~$50B in 2019, so 7.2% of app store revenue overall. It's absolutely true that Apple doesn't have a lot of pricing pressure on their 30% fee, since their platform is so compelling and especially since most competitor App Stores charge the same amount. But it's also absolutely false that they have never lowered their rate.

ecf 6y ago

Apple doesn’t fear Epic’s lawsuit for the merits of the lawsuit itself. Apple fears how Epic can use their devoted base of video game players to create a PR frenzy that turns the lawsuit into a popularity contest.

kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago
That is true for all lawsuits. The more damning implication is that Apple, one of the world's most highly valued brands, a brand name that has historically commanded 50%+ gross profit margins on commodity goods sold as luxury goods, is losing a 'popularity' contest to a video game company. Talk of changing times!