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Appoogle are a duopoly. You can’t get significant sales on mobile phones without going through their respective App Stores, which both charge 30%. What a coinci

by pja 6y ago

Appoogle are a duopoly. You can’t get significant sales on mobile phones without going through their respective App Stores, which both charge 30%. What a coincidence! Your comparisons with book publishers are specious: if I write a book today I can go to any of a number of publishers, none of whom have any kind of control over access to readers. Or I can even self-publish and sell direct. Jailbreaking is a complete irrelevance in market terms: It’s effectively impossible to sell on Apple devices without paying Apple’s tax & very difficult to sell on Android devices (which Google controls via carefully written contracts with mobile phone manufacturers) without paying Google 30%. We have anti-monopoly + market collusion laws for good reasons. It’s about time they were enforced.

bobthebuild123 6y ago
Google literally has multiple alternative app stores currently active.
- Sodman 6y ago
  We've barely been able to get people to stop referring to all Android devices as "Droids". The average person doesn't even know about alternate app stores, yet alone have the will to seek them out, install them, search for an app, and then pay for it (likely having to enter payment info this time). You might as well tell developers to release their apps on the dark web. I'm sure you can release niche apps on these stores, but the general market isn't moving away from the Play Store any time soon, and that's where the money is.
  - ody4242 6y ago
    Well, there is Amazon Appstore for Android, where you can buy digital goods (apps and games as well) on an Android device. Idk if the Amazon Appstore is available for IOS with the same terms. Can you buy IOS apps via Amazon Appstore on an IOS device?
    - sgerenser 6y ago
      Apple does not allow third party app stores on iOS. There's at least one third party store that you can side-load using developer tools but it's definitely not something the average user is aware of.
- pja 6y ago
  And how many of those are installed on the average US Android phone exactly? What happens to a phone manufacturer who ships a phone with an alternate App store?
  - Spivak 6y ago
    > What happens to a phone manufacturer who ships a phone with an alternate App store? You get to be the best selling Android phone every year. Are we all forgetting that Samsung ships their own app store? Nobody uses it because it's garbage but that's not Google Play's fault.
- ge0rg 6y ago
  I'm publishing the same (paid) app on Google Play and on Amazon's store, which is AFAICT the most widely used alternative (outside of markets where Google is not active). My Amazon income is less than 2% of the Google income.
  - zaroth 6y ago
    Which just goes to show how Google’s and Apple’s investment of tens of billions of dollars building out their respective ecosystem presents a tremendous opportunity to developers. Amazon made a half-hearted effort to compete in the space and the result is “less than 2%” in your case.
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      > tens of billions of dollars building out their respective ecosystem presents a tremendous opportunity to developers That's... one way to look at it. Another way is that they'd be spending even more if there were more healthy competition in the alternative app store market. Amazon is incentived to run an Android app store now, in the same way Microsoft was incentivized to maintain an ARM build of Windows: it's not a corporate priority, because it doesn't make business sense for it to be until the playing field changes.
      - zaroth 6y ago
        Amazon made a bunch of poorly performing and uncompetitive Android phones, and then bailed before doing the hard work of actually differentiating their product. The results are totally expected and if anything demonstrate the market is competitive, not anti-competitive. Users don’t want an “alternative App Store market”. They want a place where they know the apps they download won’t steal their data or crash their device, where the billing policies are clear and predictable, where you can set parental controls and get refunds on accidental purchases. Apple doesn’t have customers because they are the only one who you can buy water, electricity, or internet from at your home address. Apple has customers because people willingly and happily shovel their hard-earned money at them because their products are freaking amazing. In no universe can anyone say that the progression / advancement of smartphones and smartphone applications indicates a stagnant market or one in need of forced government intervention. From what I can see iPhone 1 with its 400MHz Samsung CPU and 320x480 display and its half dozen apps -> iPhone 12 with its 8 core 3GHz A14, 2532x1170 display, and millions of apps demonstrates conclusively that consumers are winning out tremendously over the last 13 years due to a highly competitive market driving truly massive R&D investment in this space. I think the problem that people actually have with Apple is that they are so far ahead of the pack, and people don’t see where the inevitable disruption is going to come from just yet.
- realusername 6y ago
  Like which ones? Even the Amazon Appstore, the largest alternative store is so negligible we might as well pretend it does not exist.
- _jal 6y ago
  How many of them have > 1% market share?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  You can't implement background installation of apps, automatic upgrading, or batch installation or upgrades of apps on Android outside of the Play Store. The competition is intentionally hobbled. If we look at market share for mobile app distribution, the vast, vast majority of it goes to the App Store and the Play Store. The competition isn't even a blip on the radar.
LeonB 6y ago
Amazon will pay a pittance for ebook sales unless you’re exclusive with them, and they’ll generally use their market leading position to limit your choices at every step.
ksec 6y ago
> Appoogle I did a search on Google and nothing really came up. Did you just invent the term? I love the name. It might end up in Main Stream Media soon.
- Lichtso 6y ago
  How about Gopple?
  - pja 6y ago
    I tried both ways, but decided that one didn’t quite trip off the tongue as well :)
- pja 6y ago
  I came up with it on the fly, but it was inspired by FAANG & similar terms. Surprised it’s that unique tbh!
dpkonofa 6y ago
I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Both Google and, especially, Apple have spent millions of dollars, hours, and effort to create their respective App Stores and the people and tools needed to run them. There's a reason why there's a difference, in the real world, between a Walmart and a Target or Sprouts. Likewise, there's a difference between Apple, Google, or anyone else's App Stores. The main difference being that Apple makes it easy and far less risky for customers to pay for what they're getting. Developers aren't buying into just the App Store, they're buying in to the whole group of customers that said App Store brings with them.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > Both Google and, especially, Apple have spent millions of dollars, hours, and effort to create their respective App Stores and the people and tools needed to run them. Google and Apple spent Millions 'claiming' Patents/IP, monopolizing new discoveries, and 'earning' Billions. "Place Silicon Valley in its proper historical context and you see that, despite its mythology, it’s far from unique. Rather, it fits into a pattern of rapid technological change which has shaped recent centuries. In this case, advances in information technology have unleashed a wave of new capabilities. Just as the internal combustion engine and the growth of the railroads created Rockefeller, and the telecommunications boom created AT&T, this breakthrough enabled a few well-placed corporations to reap the rewards. By capitalising on network effects, early mover advantage, and near-zero marginal costs of production, they have positioned themselves as gateways to information, giving them the power to extract rent from every transaction. Undergirding this state of affairs is a set of intellectual property rights explicitly designed to favour corporations. This system — the flip side of globalisation — is propagated by various trade agreements and global institutions at the behest of the nation states who benefit from it the most. It’s no accident that Silicon Valley is a uniquely American phenomenon; not only does it owe its success to the United States’ exceptionally high defence spending — the source of its research funding and foundational technological breakthroughs — that very military might is itself what implicitly secures the intellectual property regime." [1] [1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley
- neogodless 6y ago
samatman 6y ago
> which both charge 30% Well, not anymore they don't. Kind of undermines your cartel argument, if you think about it. Clever on Apple's part...

by pja 6y ago

bobthebuild123 6y ago

Google literally has multiple alternative app stores currently active.

Sodman 6y ago
We've barely been able to get people to stop referring to all Android devices as "Droids". The average person doesn't even know about alternate app stores, yet alone have the will to seek them out, install them, search for an app, and then pay for it (likely having to enter payment info this time). You might as well tell developers to release their apps on the dark web. I'm sure you can release niche apps on these stores, but the general market isn't moving away from the Play Store any time soon, and that's where the money is.
- ody4242 6y ago
  Well, there is Amazon Appstore for Android, where you can buy digital goods (apps and games as well) on an Android device. Idk if the Amazon Appstore is available for IOS with the same terms. Can you buy IOS apps via Amazon Appstore on an IOS device?
  - sgerenser 6y ago
    Apple does not allow third party app stores on iOS. There's at least one third party store that you can side-load using developer tools but it's definitely not something the average user is aware of.
pja 6y ago
And how many of those are installed on the average US Android phone exactly? What happens to a phone manufacturer who ships a phone with an alternate App store?
- Spivak 6y ago
  > What happens to a phone manufacturer who ships a phone with an alternate App store? You get to be the best selling Android phone every year. Are we all forgetting that Samsung ships their own app store? Nobody uses it because it's garbage but that's not Google Play's fault.
ge0rg 6y ago
I'm publishing the same (paid) app on Google Play and on Amazon's store, which is AFAICT the most widely used alternative (outside of markets where Google is not active). My Amazon income is less than 2% of the Google income.
- zaroth 6y ago
  Which just goes to show how Google’s and Apple’s investment of tens of billions of dollars building out their respective ecosystem presents a tremendous opportunity to developers. Amazon made a half-hearted effort to compete in the space and the result is “less than 2%” in your case.
  - ethbr0 6y ago
    > tens of billions of dollars building out their respective ecosystem presents a tremendous opportunity to developers That's... one way to look at it. Another way is that they'd be spending even more if there were more healthy competition in the alternative app store market. Amazon is incentived to run an Android app store now, in the same way Microsoft was incentivized to maintain an ARM build of Windows: it's not a corporate priority, because it doesn't make business sense for it to be until the playing field changes.
    - zaroth 6y ago
      Amazon made a bunch of poorly performing and uncompetitive Android phones, and then bailed before doing the hard work of actually differentiating their product. The results are totally expected and if anything demonstrate the market is competitive, not anti-competitive. Users don’t want an “alternative App Store market”. They want a place where they know the apps they download won’t steal their data or crash their device, where the billing policies are clear and predictable, where you can set parental controls and get refunds on accidental purchases. Apple doesn’t have customers because they are the only one who you can buy water, electricity, or internet from at your home address. Apple has customers because people willingly and happily shovel their hard-earned money at them because their products are freaking amazing. In no universe can anyone say that the progression / advancement of smartphones and smartphone applications indicates a stagnant market or one in need of forced government intervention. From what I can see iPhone 1 with its 400MHz Samsung CPU and 320x480 display and its half dozen apps -> iPhone 12 with its 8 core 3GHz A14, 2532x1170 display, and millions of apps demonstrates conclusively that consumers are winning out tremendously over the last 13 years due to a highly competitive market driving truly massive R&D investment in this space. I think the problem that people actually have with Apple is that they are so far ahead of the pack, and people don’t see where the inevitable disruption is going to come from just yet.
realusername 6y ago
Like which ones? Even the Amazon Appstore, the largest alternative store is so negligible we might as well pretend it does not exist.
_jal 6y ago
How many of them have > 1% market share?
heavyset_go 6y ago
You can't implement background installation of apps, automatic upgrading, or batch installation or upgrades of apps on Android outside of the Play Store. The competition is intentionally hobbled. If we look at market share for mobile app distribution, the vast, vast majority of it goes to the App Store and the Play Store. The competition isn't even a blip on the radar.

LeonB 6y ago

Amazon will pay a pittance for ebook sales unless you’re exclusive with them, and they’ll generally use their market leading position to limit your choices at every step.

ksec 6y ago

> Appoogle I did a search on Google and nothing really came up. Did you just invent the term? I love the name. It might end up in Main Stream Media soon.

Lichtso 6y ago
How about Gopple?
- pja 6y ago
  I tried both ways, but decided that one didn’t quite trip off the tongue as well :)
pja 6y ago
I came up with it on the fly, but it was inspired by FAANG & similar terms. Surprised it’s that unique tbh!

dpkonofa 6y ago

I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. Both Google and, especially, Apple have spent millions of dollars, hours, and effort to create their respective App Stores and the people and tools needed to run them. There's a reason why there's a difference, in the real world, between a Walmart and a Target or Sprouts. Likewise, there's a difference between Apple, Google, or anyone else's App Stores. The main difference being that Apple makes it easy and far less risky for customers to pay for what they're getting. Developers aren't buying into just the App Store, they're buying in to the whole group of customers that said App Store brings with them.

bergstromm466 6y ago
> Both Google and, especially, Apple have spent millions of dollars, hours, and effort to create their respective App Stores and the people and tools needed to run them. Google and Apple spent Millions 'claiming' Patents/IP, monopolizing new discoveries, and 'earning' Billions. "Place Silicon Valley in its proper historical context and you see that, despite its mythology, it’s far from unique. Rather, it fits into a pattern of rapid technological change which has shaped recent centuries. In this case, advances in information technology have unleashed a wave of new capabilities. Just as the internal combustion engine and the growth of the railroads created Rockefeller, and the telecommunications boom created AT&T, this breakthrough enabled a few well-placed corporations to reap the rewards. By capitalising on network effects, early mover advantage, and near-zero marginal costs of production, they have positioned themselves as gateways to information, giving them the power to extract rent from every transaction. Undergirding this state of affairs is a set of intellectual property rights explicitly designed to favour corporations. This system — the flip side of globalisation — is propagated by various trade agreements and global institutions at the behest of the nation states who benefit from it the most. It’s no accident that Silicon Valley is a uniquely American phenomenon; not only does it owe its success to the United States’ exceptionally high defence spending — the source of its research funding and foundational technological breakthroughs — that very military might is itself what implicitly secures the intellectual property regime." [1] [1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley
neogodless 6y ago

samatman 6y ago

> which both charge 30% Well, not anymore they don't. Kind of undermines your cartel argument, if you think about it. Clever on Apple's part...