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I don't expect it to make a measurable difference. Android and iOS have already pushed ARM support and optimizations in programming languages and key libraries.

by pornel 6y ago

I don't expect it to make a measurable difference. Android and iOS have already pushed ARM support and optimizations in programming languages and key libraries. For macOS, the support revolves around Xcode. Cross-compilation support is Apple-specific and won't benefit Linux. CPU architecture is abstracted away in macOS as much as possible, so average developers won't think much about ARM support. Where Apple wants developers to tune for M1 specifically, is their proprietary frameworks for ML acceleration and Metal, which don't benefit anyone but Apple. At best there may be some halo effect from proving that ARM can be as fast as "real" desktop CPUs, and it's not just the low-end slow Qualcomm chips. That might legitimize running ARM on servers, but Pi is neither high-end desktop nor a server platform.

ogrisel 6y ago
One could expect that docker on macOS with M1 will be able to run aarch64 linux container images and therefore make it more convenient for developers to better maintain open source libraries for this platform (without suffering from long build time on an under-powered external ARM box, or the complexity to setup a cross-compilation toolchain or the slowness of a qemu layer).
jankotek 6y ago
MacOS has privacy issues. But if Linux works fine on M1... Finally great ARM based workstation.
- marcan_42 6y ago
  Linux will not run on the M1 until 1a) Apple decides to allow it or 1b) someone finds a boot chain exploit, and 2a) Apple releases full chip documentetion or a Linux port outright or 2b) People spend years reverse engineering it all until it works well. I don't see 2a happening, and let's hope for 1a and time.
  - DCKing 6y ago
    Apple ships a utility on Apple Silicon Macs that allows you to sign kernels yourself for booting yourself, sort of like EFI Secure Boot: https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1326315741080150016 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132631574108015001... Surely the Linux kernel does not support these things now, but there's only baseless speculation that Apple would actively lock this down.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - rowanG077 6y ago
      It's not exactly baseless since Apple actively opposes open computing. You can't even run an interpreter on iOS without Apple hammer coming down. They are slowly but surely moving towards not being apple to run anything not Apple on OSX as well. So I don't think it's baseless to suggest that Apple will try to actively lock this down.
      - DCKing 6y ago
        > It's not exactly baseless since Apple actively opposes open computing. > They are slowly but surely moving towards not being apple to run anything not Apple on OSX as well. I would argue that both of these statements are completely baseless, and the second is actually actively argued against by Apple. I'll be the first to say that their handling of iOS things is horrible, and I would buy iPhones and iPads if they were a more open platform, but the world is more complicated than "Apple is evil" and their handling of iOS has no bearing on the Mac.
        rowanG077 6y ago
        I don't really care what they say themselves. They quite obviously continue to move OSX in that direction. First they made opening unsigned programs a little bit harder. Then they made it much harder. Now they don't allow any unsigned apps to run at all unless you opt-out at OSX install time. I really don't understand how you can believe this is not clear. Especially considering the iOS situation.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Even 1a is unlikely. Have they ever done something to support Linux on Intel Macs?
    - dreamcompiler 6y ago
      No, but I'm thinking they might if they get hit with a hefty enough antitrust case.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    > "Linux will not run on the M1 until ..." Not as the primary boot OS, perhaps, but it will work under virtualization. The M1 chip supports virtualization, and Apple has a new hypervisor API in Big Sur: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    As I mentioned in a previous comment, 2b should be easier on the M1 because it's inside a real computer with debugging tools and we can probably fuzz the hell out of it, among other things. (Famous last words.) 1b and device drivers seem to me like the biggest obstacles.
- oblio 6y ago
  I would be amazed if Linux runs better on M1 laptops than on Intel ones. As far as I know there Linux driver support for Intel Macs is abysmal, due to lack of support from Apple. I would be shocked if ARM Macs, which will probably be even more locked down, were more open somehow.
DCKing 6y ago
Parallels/VMWare (even Docker maybe) on Apple Silicon Macs will be the first desktop class Linux ARM computers in wide circulation. Certainly putting a popular and performant package for the same software stack as the Rasperry Pi should help the Raspberry Pi project right? I don't understand why you think Apple specific components matter, surely Linux developers will ignore those and focus on the cpu side.
fredthomsen 6y ago
Curious how is CPU architecture abstracted away more macOS than any other OS?
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  Partially because if you use Xcode and Swift the CPU is mostly irrelevant. If you don't use those tools you'll need to care more about the CPU. And partially because Apple built their own silicon, which means there could be secret instructions or instructions that work slightly differently than expected for ARM. I don't know how true this is for the M1 but it's been one of many issues holding back non-Apple compilers and Linux on Apple mobile devices. Having the M1 on a real desktop computer with deep debugging tools may mean we can fuzz and fully characterize the M1, which was harder to do on iPhones.

by pornel 6y ago

ogrisel 6y ago

One could expect that docker on macOS with M1 will be able to run aarch64 linux container images and therefore make it more convenient for developers to better maintain open source libraries for this platform (without suffering from long build time on an under-powered external ARM box, or the complexity to setup a cross-compilation toolchain or the slowness of a qemu layer).

jankotek 6y ago

MacOS has privacy issues. But if Linux works fine on M1... Finally great ARM based workstation.

marcan_42 6y ago
Linux will not run on the M1 until 1a) Apple decides to allow it or 1b) someone finds a boot chain exploit, and 2a) Apple releases full chip documentetion or a Linux port outright or 2b) People spend years reverse engineering it all until it works well. I don't see 2a happening, and let's hope for 1a and time.
- DCKing 6y ago
  Apple ships a utility on Apple Silicon Macs that allows you to sign kernels yourself for booting yourself, sort of like EFI Secure Boot: https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1326315741080150016 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132631574108015001... Surely the Linux kernel does not support these things now, but there's only baseless speculation that Apple would actively lock this down.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - rowanG077 6y ago
    It's not exactly baseless since Apple actively opposes open computing. You can't even run an interpreter on iOS without Apple hammer coming down. They are slowly but surely moving towards not being apple to run anything not Apple on OSX as well. So I don't think it's baseless to suggest that Apple will try to actively lock this down.
    - DCKing 6y ago
      > It's not exactly baseless since Apple actively opposes open computing. > They are slowly but surely moving towards not being apple to run anything not Apple on OSX as well. I would argue that both of these statements are completely baseless, and the second is actually actively argued against by Apple. I'll be the first to say that their handling of iOS things is horrible, and I would buy iPhones and iPads if they were a more open platform, but the world is more complicated than "Apple is evil" and their handling of iOS has no bearing on the Mac.
      - rowanG077 6y ago
        I don't really care what they say themselves. They quite obviously continue to move OSX in that direction. First they made opening unsigned programs a little bit harder. Then they made it much harder. Now they don't allow any unsigned apps to run at all unless you opt-out at OSX install time. I really don't understand how you can believe this is not clear. Especially considering the iOS situation.
- oblio 6y ago
  Even 1a is unlikely. Have they ever done something to support Linux on Intel Macs?
  - dreamcompiler 6y ago
    No, but I'm thinking they might if they get hit with a hefty enough antitrust case.
- Reason077 6y ago
  > "Linux will not run on the M1 until ..." Not as the primary boot OS, perhaps, but it will work under virtualization. The M1 chip supports virtualization, and Apple has a new hypervisor API in Big Sur: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  As I mentioned in a previous comment, 2b should be easier on the M1 because it's inside a real computer with debugging tools and we can probably fuzz the hell out of it, among other things. (Famous last words.) 1b and device drivers seem to me like the biggest obstacles.
oblio 6y ago
I would be amazed if Linux runs better on M1 laptops than on Intel ones. As far as I know there Linux driver support for Intel Macs is abysmal, due to lack of support from Apple. I would be shocked if ARM Macs, which will probably be even more locked down, were more open somehow.

DCKing 6y ago

Parallels/VMWare (even Docker maybe) on Apple Silicon Macs will be the first desktop class Linux ARM computers in wide circulation. Certainly putting a popular and performant package for the same software stack as the Rasperry Pi should help the Raspberry Pi project right? I don't understand why you think Apple specific components matter, surely Linux developers will ignore those and focus on the cpu side.

fredthomsen 6y ago

Curious how is CPU architecture abstracted away more macOS than any other OS?

dreamcompiler 6y ago
Partially because if you use Xcode and Swift the CPU is mostly irrelevant. If you don't use those tools you'll need to care more about the CPU. And partially because Apple built their own silicon, which means there could be secret instructions or instructions that work slightly differently than expected for ARM. I don't know how true this is for the M1 but it's been one of many issues holding back non-Apple compilers and Linux on Apple mobile devices. Having the M1 on a real desktop computer with deep debugging tools may mean we can fuzz and fully characterize the M1, which was harder to do on iPhones.