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> It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people Do we though? We expect people to not break the rules, e.g murder or steal. We don't expect p

> It's funny how people expect moral behaviour from other people Do we though? We expect people to not break the rules, e.g murder or steal. We don't expect people to stop eating meat, polluting the earth, or generally to stop being extremely selfish. If we expected everyone to be moral you and I wouldn't be spending money on vacations and buying computer games but on trying to save poor kids in Africa and Bangladesh.

bserge 6y ago
Over the years, I realized that everyone is selfish and will literally throw you under a bus for the right amount of money, or some other acceptable incentive. Laws keep people in line, except for the few who break them and get away with it. Maybe I'm hanging around the wrong people (I often wonder where all the "right" ones are), but that's how it is. And if I don't play the same game, I'll keep getting fucked until I die. It's really depressing.
- LeonB 6y ago
  I think you might be hanging around the wrong people. I’ve rarely met people with the ethics (or lack) you describe and certainly haven’t stayed in their presence if i can help it.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  Everony is selfish yes. Throw you under the bus - not sure about this one. Might be you need better friends.
- yboris 6y ago
  Once you make claims like "everyone is", it sounds like you've given up on evidence, or have a tautological (always true) definition. Empirical evidence says otherwise (about altruism): see the work of Daniel Batson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Batson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Batson As for good people, there are many. There are thousands who give at least 10% of their income to the most cost-effective charity they can find - https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ There are thousands of people working very hard on the most effective solutions to the world's most important problems - https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ There is plenty of hope. Find better people, work to improve yourself, the world, and others.
- licebmi__at__ 6y ago
  This cynical outlook it's definitely helpful, but I believe the truth is more gray. It's quite likely and understandable that my friends will throw me under the bus if they see their livelihood in danger, but so far it hasn't been the case for measly higher pay. And yet I have depended on the kindness of strangers who had nothing to gain by helping me enough times to acknowledge that it's not selfishness what engages human behavior. As always it kinda depends on the framing, you can even say that it's on my best interest to act for the common good, so even altruism is selfish, but then you'll have a useless definition of altruism.
- IggleSniggle 6y ago
  “Or some other acceptable incentive.” Ok sure, that leaves the opening wide for any possibility including “throw your friend under the bus or I will literally shoot you in the head,” “this 1 billion will be distributed to the needy if and only if you block your friend from receiving a promotion” or even more realistically, “friend 1 gets a promotion or friend 2 gets a promotion.” At any rate, for smaller things, my experience is that most folks will not throw you under the bus. At high stakes, it really just depends on whether the relationship with you (and folks you might complain to) and/or relationship to whatever intrinsic value system matters more or less than the stakes.
yboris 6y ago
We should nudge and pressure people to be better (whether using some 'dark arts' or with kindness). Once you learn about the horrors of the animal abuse happening thanks to the money with which you buy meat, I think it's the right thing to stop. And similarly, to encourage others to decrease their meat consumption by letting them know that by buying meat, they are very likely going against their values (just ask them if they would pay to torture a dog, for example). Instilling better norms in a society is hard work, but it's a good thing. Thanks to the efforts of our predecessors, we now look down on beating one's wife, for example. Let's join together, and make it the norm to give 10% of our income to the most cost-effective charities we can find (see https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ )
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  > And similarly, to encourage others to decrease their meat consumption by letting them know that by buying meat, they are very likely going against their values Well, people know. Maybe they don't KNOW know, in the sense of actually visiting a slaughter house and smelling the blood, but I'm sure most people know about animal shipments, tiny cages, and that gassing or slashing animals throats isn't a picnic. Personally I donate money to an animal protection program (probably don't donate enough). Conversations I have with people in my life about this are overwhelmingly futile and people become quite hostile when you talk to them about this.
  - yboris 6y ago
    It's a challenge talking about this topic. It's very easy to come off as "I'm better than you" or "you are a bad person". But these conversations can be productive and non-offensive. I encourage people to see a wide continuum between eating 100% meat and eating 0% animal products. I express that I understand the challenges in decreasing one's meat consumption. I point out that it's not all or nothing - you can be "mostly vegan" (while still consuming animal products sometimes). It's best to have conversations like this when the person is asking, not because you "caught" them eating an animal product. Because of how grim the reality is for animals raised for food, most people are reluctant to be exposed to what it means. They will hope that (and not look for evidence against their belief that) the meat they buy comes from a better place (it's worth pointing out that in the US about 99% of meat comes from factory farms). As I said - people's values are likely aligned. Polls consistently show that people do not approve of animal abuse. The final argument that made me drastically decrease my meat consumption was the empirical fact that individual choices matter:while supermarkets are not 100% responsive (buying 1 item less decreases their next order by 1 item), they are responsive to demand. And if they buy in batches (which they likely do), you have a chance of triggering a "next-larger" batch order. On average it all works out to an (economic) elasticity of less than 1, but a far cry from 0 (depends on type of meat, but rough figure of 0.5 is a sensible underestimate).
ironmagma 6y ago
We do expect each other to be reasonably moral. It’s understood though that everyone has limits and is fundamentally flawed, so at the end of the day a few things have to be written off. Exactly how many things you write off, interestingly, contributes to your own moral standing.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  I don't think we expect everyone to be reasonably moral, at least I don't live with that expectation - that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Yes, most people don't murder or rape, but we're still quite a selfish and survivalist creature. Although we know perfectly well the amount of suffering the meat industry causes, most of us are fine with consuming meat and dairy, as long as we don't need to see the images of how the meat gets to our plate. Mostly because it tastes good; red meat is actually unhealthy. That's just one tiny example that leads me to think we're not reasonably moral. I'm not saying we can't be taught morals, but we have a long way to go till we can say what's happening is "reasonable".
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    Food science findings (which tend to be unreliable) aside, eating food is something that’s hard to fault someone else for doing. The fact that most people eat meat alone is something that makes it more of a reasonable thing to do, even more so that we typically don’t find out about the conditions of cows, chickens, etc. until we are already mostly grown and hooked on the stuff. Morality is a complicated thing to define[citation needed] but I would posit we actually generally have a high moral standard for each other in the west. We expect each other to not lie pathologically, push others away when they take advantage of those around them (e.g. scammers, con artists) enforce the rules of monogamous relationships (for the vast majority), return lost belongings to each other, encourage food safety, and so on. And you can find secular explanations for all of those, but most people are just taught that those are the right things and stick to it. Sure, some of the integrity of those areas are eroding over time, but generally speaking society is still held together with morals.
    - 6y ago

bserge 6y ago

Over the years, I realized that everyone is selfish and will literally throw you under a bus for the right amount of money, or some other acceptable incentive. Laws keep people in line, except for the few who break them and get away with it. Maybe I'm hanging around the wrong people (I often wonder where all the "right" ones are), but that's how it is. And if I don't play the same game, I'll keep getting fucked until I die. It's really depressing.

LeonB 6y ago
I think you might be hanging around the wrong people. I’ve rarely met people with the ethics (or lack) you describe and certainly haven’t stayed in their presence if i can help it.
joelbluminator 6y ago
Everony is selfish yes. Throw you under the bus - not sure about this one. Might be you need better friends.
yboris 6y ago
Once you make claims like "everyone is", it sounds like you've given up on evidence, or have a tautological (always true) definition. Empirical evidence says otherwise (about altruism): see the work of Daniel Batson - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Batson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Batson As for good people, there are many. There are thousands who give at least 10% of their income to the most cost-effective charity they can find - https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ There are thousands of people working very hard on the most effective solutions to the world's most important problems - https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ There is plenty of hope. Find better people, work to improve yourself, the world, and others.
licebmi__at__ 6y ago
This cynical outlook it's definitely helpful, but I believe the truth is more gray. It's quite likely and understandable that my friends will throw me under the bus if they see their livelihood in danger, but so far it hasn't been the case for measly higher pay. And yet I have depended on the kindness of strangers who had nothing to gain by helping me enough times to acknowledge that it's not selfishness what engages human behavior. As always it kinda depends on the framing, you can even say that it's on my best interest to act for the common good, so even altruism is selfish, but then you'll have a useless definition of altruism.
IggleSniggle 6y ago
“Or some other acceptable incentive.” Ok sure, that leaves the opening wide for any possibility including “throw your friend under the bus or I will literally shoot you in the head,” “this 1 billion will be distributed to the needy if and only if you block your friend from receiving a promotion” or even more realistically, “friend 1 gets a promotion or friend 2 gets a promotion.” At any rate, for smaller things, my experience is that most folks will not throw you under the bus. At high stakes, it really just depends on whether the relationship with you (and folks you might complain to) and/or relationship to whatever intrinsic value system matters more or less than the stakes.

yboris 6y ago

We should nudge and pressure people to be better (whether using some 'dark arts' or with kindness). Once you learn about the horrors of the animal abuse happening thanks to the money with which you buy meat, I think it's the right thing to stop. And similarly, to encourage others to decrease their meat consumption by letting them know that by buying meat, they are very likely going against their values (just ask them if they would pay to torture a dog, for example). Instilling better norms in a society is hard work, but it's a good thing. Thanks to the efforts of our predecessors, we now look down on beating one's wife, for example. Let's join together, and make it the norm to give 10% of our income to the most cost-effective charities we can find (see https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/ )

joelbluminator 6y ago
> And similarly, to encourage others to decrease their meat consumption by letting them know that by buying meat, they are very likely going against their values Well, people know. Maybe they don't KNOW know, in the sense of actually visiting a slaughter house and smelling the blood, but I'm sure most people know about animal shipments, tiny cages, and that gassing or slashing animals throats isn't a picnic. Personally I donate money to an animal protection program (probably don't donate enough). Conversations I have with people in my life about this are overwhelmingly futile and people become quite hostile when you talk to them about this.
- yboris 6y ago
  It's a challenge talking about this topic. It's very easy to come off as "I'm better than you" or "you are a bad person". But these conversations can be productive and non-offensive. I encourage people to see a wide continuum between eating 100% meat and eating 0% animal products. I express that I understand the challenges in decreasing one's meat consumption. I point out that it's not all or nothing - you can be "mostly vegan" (while still consuming animal products sometimes). It's best to have conversations like this when the person is asking, not because you "caught" them eating an animal product. Because of how grim the reality is for animals raised for food, most people are reluctant to be exposed to what it means. They will hope that (and not look for evidence against their belief that) the meat they buy comes from a better place (it's worth pointing out that in the US about 99% of meat comes from factory farms). As I said - people's values are likely aligned. Polls consistently show that people do not approve of animal abuse. The final argument that made me drastically decrease my meat consumption was the empirical fact that individual choices matter:while supermarkets are not 100% responsive (buying 1 item less decreases their next order by 1 item), they are responsive to demand. And if they buy in batches (which they likely do), you have a chance of triggering a "next-larger" batch order. On average it all works out to an (economic) elasticity of less than 1, but a far cry from 0 (depends on type of meat, but rough figure of 0.5 is a sensible underestimate).

ironmagma 6y ago

We do expect each other to be reasonably moral. It’s understood though that everyone has limits and is fundamentally flawed, so at the end of the day a few things have to be written off. Exactly how many things you write off, interestingly, contributes to your own moral standing.

joelbluminator 6y ago
I don't think we expect everyone to be reasonably moral, at least I don't live with that expectation - that's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Yes, most people don't murder or rape, but we're still quite a selfish and survivalist creature. Although we know perfectly well the amount of suffering the meat industry causes, most of us are fine with consuming meat and dairy, as long as we don't need to see the images of how the meat gets to our plate. Mostly because it tastes good; red meat is actually unhealthy. That's just one tiny example that leads me to think we're not reasonably moral. I'm not saying we can't be taught morals, but we have a long way to go till we can say what's happening is "reasonable".
- ironmagma 6y ago
  Food science findings (which tend to be unreliable) aside, eating food is something that’s hard to fault someone else for doing. The fact that most people eat meat alone is something that makes it more of a reasonable thing to do, even more so that we typically don’t find out about the conditions of cows, chickens, etc. until we are already mostly grown and hooked on the stuff. Morality is a complicated thing to define[citation needed] but I would posit we actually generally have a high moral standard for each other in the west. We expect each other to not lie pathologically, push others away when they take advantage of those around them (e.g. scammers, con artists) enforce the rules of monogamous relationships (for the vast majority), return lost belongings to each other, encourage food safety, and so on. And you can find secular explanations for all of those, but most people are just taught that those are the right things and stick to it. Sure, some of the integrity of those areas are eroding over time, but generally speaking society is still held together with morals.
  - 6y ago