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The PS3 has an incredibly powerful CPU that is a a real pain to emulate. Modernretrogamer did quite an interesting Youtube piece on it: https://www.youtube.com

by mnd999 6y ago

The PS3 has an incredibly powerful CPU that is a a real pain to emulate. Modernretrogamer did quite an interesting Youtube piece on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLebZyha74o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLebZyha74o

NullPrefix 6y ago
They don't make them like this anymore
- rusk 6y ago
  Every Game Dev: Thank God
  - mnd999 6y ago
    I know it was a pain to code for initially but once the tooling got better was it really that bad? The Cell still seems like an awesome piece of kit. Had the PS4 been a PS3 with a new GPU and a clocked up Cell with an extra PPE would that have been a bad thing?
    - rusk 6y ago
      I “loved” the idea of the cell when I heard about it, but the development community’s struggle with it should be a salutary lesson to us all!
      - csharptwdec19 6y ago
        It's a challenge game companies have had for a long time. Sometimes, being bold means trying new architectures... But the important thing is making sure they are easy to adopt. That's the irony of the 'lesson' of the PS3 being hard to develop for; Sega learned that one the hard way with the Saturn.
        mnd999 6y ago
        I guess that’s my question, was the Cell fundamentally bad or was it just too new, different and hard to adopt? If it’s the latter then building the PS4 on the cell as well should have been fine as by that point it’s a well-known and well-understood architecture.
        detaro 6y ago
        Even if it's well-understood, being fundamentally different than the other platforms is still a cost for anyone not exclusively making Playstation titles.
        ascagnel_ 6y ago
        The Cell was poorly suited for video games — video games don’t have much in the way of highly parallelizable, discrete tasks. Games, even modern ones, generally want fewer, higher-clocked cores — something like Threadripper would be of little benefit.
    - w0utert 6y ago
      >> Had the PS4 been a PS3 with a new GPU and a clocked up Cell with an extra PPE would that have been a bad thing? Probably, if only because non-exclusive AAA games already cost tens of millions of $$$ to develop, and no other consoles or PC's show any similarity with the Cell architecture. So you would either end up with really crappy PS versions of multi-platform games, or they would not be made for PS at all.
    - rhinoceraptor 6y ago
      Johnathan Blow had an interesting view on it [1], he talks about the idea of the Cell being you somehow refactor your game to be parallelized across the SPEs. But the whole point of a game is that you're simulating a cohesive little world, and anything that is easily separable from the global view of the world is probably not core to the gameplay. One example is sound effects, if you're generating sound effects, you can't do a good job of that without the context of the environment and what is making the noise, so you necessarily have very deep data dependencies. [1]: (at about 22 minutes onward) https://oxide.computer/podcast/on-the-metal-9-jonathan-blow/ https://oxide.computer/podcast/on-the-metal-9-jonathan-blow/
Rebelgecko 6y ago
It's surprising to me that PS3 emulation (RPCS3) is so much further along than Xbox360 emulation (Xenia). Is it just a matter of one platform getting more attention?
- SpaceManNabs 6y ago
  Complete guess: I think part of the issue is that a lot of Xbox games that aren't exclusive to Sony or Switch are also on Windows. So maybe there is a slightly smaller incentive?
- jgoyvaerts 6y ago
  It's a combination of various factors. The games definitely play a role (PS3 has more exclusives, Xbox360 is mainly Halo and even that has been remastered on PC now). Another factor is how the projects are maintained and managed. The maintainers of RPCS3 are more active and pull requests get feedback and merged relatively quickly. On Xenia side, pull requests can remain open for months even though they should be merged, and this has caused multiple (potential) contributors to stop making pull requests. Source: I'm a contributor on Xenia
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  It is also interesting that the orig xbox is not further along.
jokowueu 6y ago
I keep reading that it's difficult to emulate but the current Rpcs3 is doing great work at such a high pace https://youtu.be/MhLteF_xVi0 https://youtu.be/MhLteF_xVi0
- rusk 6y ago
  OMG how have I not played this game!
- w0utert 6y ago
  Rpcs3 is extremely impressive, but remember it took 9 years to get to the point where it is now, and still many games break or have unplayable performance even on the highest-end PC's you can buy today. So it kind of proves the point how ridiculously difficult it is to emulate that machine.
- Narann 6y ago
  > I keep reading that it's difficult to emulate but the current Rpcs3 is doing great work at such a high pace The fact a 9 year old emulator with talented devs with successful patreon is doing great work at such a high pace doesn't invalidate the fact PS3 is a nightmare to emulate.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I generally agree, but it’s worth noting that rpcs3 has to reverse engineer everything. Any developer team working within Sony would likely have a much easier time.

by mnd999 6y ago

NullPrefix 6y ago

They don't make them like this anymore

rusk 6y ago
Every Game Dev: Thank God
- mnd999 6y ago
  I know it was a pain to code for initially but once the tooling got better was it really that bad? The Cell still seems like an awesome piece of kit. Had the PS4 been a PS3 with a new GPU and a clocked up Cell with an extra PPE would that have been a bad thing?
  - rusk 6y ago
    I “loved” the idea of the cell when I heard about it, but the development community’s struggle with it should be a salutary lesson to us all!
    - csharptwdec19 6y ago
      It's a challenge game companies have had for a long time. Sometimes, being bold means trying new architectures... But the important thing is making sure they are easy to adopt. That's the irony of the 'lesson' of the PS3 being hard to develop for; Sega learned that one the hard way with the Saturn.
      - mnd999 6y ago
        I guess that’s my question, was the Cell fundamentally bad or was it just too new, different and hard to adopt? If it’s the latter then building the PS4 on the cell as well should have been fine as by that point it’s a well-known and well-understood architecture.
        detaro 6y ago
        Even if it's well-understood, being fundamentally different than the other platforms is still a cost for anyone not exclusively making Playstation titles.
        ascagnel_ 6y ago
        The Cell was poorly suited for video games — video games don’t have much in the way of highly parallelizable, discrete tasks. Games, even modern ones, generally want fewer, higher-clocked cores — something like Threadripper would be of little benefit.
  - w0utert 6y ago
    >> Had the PS4 been a PS3 with a new GPU and a clocked up Cell with an extra PPE would that have been a bad thing? Probably, if only because non-exclusive AAA games already cost tens of millions of $$$ to develop, and no other consoles or PC's show any similarity with the Cell architecture. So you would either end up with really crappy PS versions of multi-platform games, or they would not be made for PS at all.
  - rhinoceraptor 6y ago
    Johnathan Blow had an interesting view on it [1], he talks about the idea of the Cell being you somehow refactor your game to be parallelized across the SPEs. But the whole point of a game is that you're simulating a cohesive little world, and anything that is easily separable from the global view of the world is probably not core to the gameplay. One example is sound effects, if you're generating sound effects, you can't do a good job of that without the context of the environment and what is making the noise, so you necessarily have very deep data dependencies. [1]: (at about 22 minutes onward) https://oxide.computer/podcast/on-the-metal-9-jonathan-blow/ https://oxide.computer/podcast/on-the-metal-9-jonathan-blow/

Rebelgecko 6y ago

It's surprising to me that PS3 emulation (RPCS3) is so much further along than Xbox360 emulation (Xenia). Is it just a matter of one platform getting more attention?

SpaceManNabs 6y ago
Complete guess: I think part of the issue is that a lot of Xbox games that aren't exclusive to Sony or Switch are also on Windows. So maybe there is a slightly smaller incentive?
jgoyvaerts 6y ago
It's a combination of various factors. The games definitely play a role (PS3 has more exclusives, Xbox360 is mainly Halo and even that has been remastered on PC now). Another factor is how the projects are maintained and managed. The maintainers of RPCS3 are more active and pull requests get feedback and merged relatively quickly. On Xenia side, pull requests can remain open for months even though they should be merged, and this has caused multiple (potential) contributors to stop making pull requests. Source: I'm a contributor on Xenia
sumtechguy 6y ago
It is also interesting that the orig xbox is not further along.

jokowueu 6y ago

I keep reading that it's difficult to emulate but the current Rpcs3 is doing great work at such a high pace https://youtu.be/MhLteF_xVi0 https://youtu.be/MhLteF_xVi0

rusk 6y ago
OMG how have I not played this game!
w0utert 6y ago
Rpcs3 is extremely impressive, but remember it took 9 years to get to the point where it is now, and still many games break or have unplayable performance even on the highest-end PC's you can buy today. So it kind of proves the point how ridiculously difficult it is to emulate that machine.
Narann 6y ago
> I keep reading that it's difficult to emulate but the current Rpcs3 is doing great work at such a high pace The fact a 9 year old emulator with talented devs with successful patreon is doing great work at such a high pace doesn't invalidate the fact PS3 is a nightmare to emulate.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I generally agree, but it’s worth noting that rpcs3 has to reverse engineer everything. Any developer team working within Sony would likely have a much easier time.