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And I think it supports Dijkstra's argument [1]: "Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of one's native tongue is the most vital ass

by thesz 6y ago

And I think it supports Dijkstra's argument [1]: "Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer." https://twitter.com/CodeWisdom/status/1318597850411008006 https://twitter.com/CodeWisdom/status/1318597850411008006

capableweb 6y ago
Not sure why it's "one's native tongue" and not "same language as the people you work with", as many of us hardly use our native language once we move away from the country we were born in, especially when talking about programming.
- Leherenn 6y ago
  It's especially surprising given Dijkstra wasn't a native English speaker.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  Because mastering the native tongue shows the programmer was able to learn a lot of important basics at a very young age. Whereas the inability to master the native tongue shows a lack of education.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    > able to learn a lot of important basics at a very young age Ok, and why is that important? Could be a ton of reasons why people are lagging behind when they are younger but be able to catch up when they are adults. Judging people based on how you think they might have been when they were younger feels... Not fair. Judge them based on their current knowledge and person instead. > inability to master the native tongue shows a lack of education I think you're reading too much into it. Education has nothing to do with native tongue. People forget language. I myself speak my native tongue a lot worse now when I lived outside the country I was born in a couple of years. Does this mean I lack education? No! I do lack any education, but that's not the reason my native tongue is getting worse every passing year.
    - thesz 6y ago
      One can master owns native language being an adult, why not? I am Russian and I enjoy translating wonderfully sounding English concepts to Russian. As you can understand, it takes a little bit of mastery in both languages. The upside I get is that these wonderfully sounding language concepts often lose all their charm when translated into Russian. They turn into a pumpkin. This way I can better focus on what is essential. As I am here on the matter of focusing on essential things, please look at "Being Popular" essay by Paul Graham: http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html Let me quote: "They're perfectly justified: the majority of hot new whatevers do turn out to be a waste of time, and eventually go away. By delaying learning VRML, I avoided having to learn it at all." Another upside of translating things is that you often cannot apply same questions to English and Russian terms. There are questions applicable only to English term and there are questions for Russian term which are not applicable to English one. You have to do analysis anew, finding new sides of the problem, which either show you the problem's true underwater size or help you solve it.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      Because learning a formal language is akin to learning a programming language. You misunderstood education as formal education. Just by exploring as a child, and living, you learn your native language. Before a child goes to school, they already learn by playing. That, too, is education, and sadly some children are deprived from that or their lack of intelligence already shows. Our oldest (not even 3), for example, is well ahead language-wise, whereas motor skills she's a tad behind. If you don't practice something, the skill tend to get lost, yes. However, something you learned at a very young age defines you, and is (for good or bad) difficult to unlearn. Only at an old age or due to memory/brain related disease does it get lost. When I went on vacation to USA for 3 months, twice, I had to speak English. I didn't speak Dutch at all. When I got back, I had to adapt to Dutch way of living and Dutch language, but it went rather quick. I have no problem 'thinking' in English because I learned this at a very young age; whereas French just never clicked with me. These people who end up with expat parents and the like are an exception. Exceptions like these prove the rule.
- yowlingcat 6y ago
  This might be splitting hairs a little bit, but I wonder if he didn't mean native tongue so literally. Perhaps native tongue simply means "the language you are most comfortable with" -- along the same lines of "use whatever tool you like, as long as you can use it /well/"
- throwaway2245 6y ago
  Considering that Dijkstra didn't consistently work in his native tongue (this is quoted from EWD498 which was written in English), this seems to be very much intentional. I guess he meant: If you know how to formulate some concept efficiently in your native tongue, you can work out how to translate it into another [programming or human] language.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    > If you know how to formulate some concept efficiently in your native tongue, you can work out how to translate it into another [programming or human] language Even with that it seems strange, as I don't think I'm alone with having a easier time formulating some concepts (especially programming) in my now main language, while sometimes I can barely make myself understood when speaking my mother tongue. The view yowlingcat offers in another sibling comment makes more sense to me, to not parse Dijkstras comment as literally as I did.
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      It's also possible that Dijkstra was wrong/didn't consider this case. At this point in his career, he was still teaching in Dutch at a Dutch University, so likely had a different experience of being bilingual than you do.

by thesz 6y ago

capableweb 6y ago

Not sure why it's "one's native tongue" and not "same language as the people you work with", as many of us hardly use our native language once we move away from the country we were born in, especially when talking about programming.

Leherenn 6y ago
It's especially surprising given Dijkstra wasn't a native English speaker.
Fnoord 6y ago
Because mastering the native tongue shows the programmer was able to learn a lot of important basics at a very young age. Whereas the inability to master the native tongue shows a lack of education.
- capableweb 6y ago
  > able to learn a lot of important basics at a very young age Ok, and why is that important? Could be a ton of reasons why people are lagging behind when they are younger but be able to catch up when they are adults. Judging people based on how you think they might have been when they were younger feels... Not fair. Judge them based on their current knowledge and person instead. > inability to master the native tongue shows a lack of education I think you're reading too much into it. Education has nothing to do with native tongue. People forget language. I myself speak my native tongue a lot worse now when I lived outside the country I was born in a couple of years. Does this mean I lack education? No! I do lack any education, but that's not the reason my native tongue is getting worse every passing year.
  - thesz 6y ago
    One can master owns native language being an adult, why not? I am Russian and I enjoy translating wonderfully sounding English concepts to Russian. As you can understand, it takes a little bit of mastery in both languages. The upside I get is that these wonderfully sounding language concepts often lose all their charm when translated into Russian. They turn into a pumpkin. This way I can better focus on what is essential. As I am here on the matter of focusing on essential things, please look at "Being Popular" essay by Paul Graham: http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html Let me quote: "They're perfectly justified: the majority of hot new whatevers do turn out to be a waste of time, and eventually go away. By delaying learning VRML, I avoided having to learn it at all." Another upside of translating things is that you often cannot apply same questions to English and Russian terms. There are questions applicable only to English term and there are questions for Russian term which are not applicable to English one. You have to do analysis anew, finding new sides of the problem, which either show you the problem's true underwater size or help you solve it.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    Because learning a formal language is akin to learning a programming language. You misunderstood education as formal education. Just by exploring as a child, and living, you learn your native language. Before a child goes to school, they already learn by playing. That, too, is education, and sadly some children are deprived from that or their lack of intelligence already shows. Our oldest (not even 3), for example, is well ahead language-wise, whereas motor skills she's a tad behind. If you don't practice something, the skill tend to get lost, yes. However, something you learned at a very young age defines you, and is (for good or bad) difficult to unlearn. Only at an old age or due to memory/brain related disease does it get lost. When I went on vacation to USA for 3 months, twice, I had to speak English. I didn't speak Dutch at all. When I got back, I had to adapt to Dutch way of living and Dutch language, but it went rather quick. I have no problem 'thinking' in English because I learned this at a very young age; whereas French just never clicked with me. These people who end up with expat parents and the like are an exception. Exceptions like these prove the rule.
yowlingcat 6y ago
This might be splitting hairs a little bit, but I wonder if he didn't mean native tongue so literally. Perhaps native tongue simply means "the language you are most comfortable with" -- along the same lines of "use whatever tool you like, as long as you can use it /well/"
throwaway2245 6y ago
Considering that Dijkstra didn't consistently work in his native tongue (this is quoted from EWD498 which was written in English), this seems to be very much intentional. I guess he meant: If you know how to formulate some concept efficiently in your native tongue, you can work out how to translate it into another [programming or human] language.
- capableweb 6y ago
  > If you know how to formulate some concept efficiently in your native tongue, you can work out how to translate it into another [programming or human] language Even with that it seems strange, as I don't think I'm alone with having a easier time formulating some concepts (especially programming) in my now main language, while sometimes I can barely make myself understood when speaking my mother tongue. The view yowlingcat offers in another sibling comment makes more sense to me, to not parse Dijkstras comment as literally as I did.
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    It's also possible that Dijkstra was wrong/didn't consider this case. At this point in his career, he was still teaching in Dutch at a Dutch University, so likely had a different experience of being bilingual than you do.