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This echoes OPs point about culture. One absolutely should not do what you've mentioned in my location. Here we lay out the arguments, and the conclusion at the

• tayo42 6y ago
  How is that cultural? Even through elementary school we were taught to have an intro with what your point is, follow up with supporting arguments, then conclude by reiterating the point the you made. How could you read anything without knowing the point in the beginning. Even research papers start off with an abstract.
  • watwut 6y ago
    The fact that you was taught that in elementary school and thus literally concluded that it is impossible to read something without knowing conclusion first is what makes it cultural. The fact that he and everyone around him sees conclusion up front as jumping the gun and likely was taught that structure in school, is what makes it cultural. > How could you read anything without knowing the point in the beginning. Even research papers start off with an abstract. It is pretty easy to read email or argument without knowing the conclusion up front. You just read on. Research papers are specific writing with specific rules. I dont really think they are in general example of good or persuasive writing.
    • tayo42 6y ago
      It doesn't make sense as being cultural because there plenty of real examples of effective writing that starts with what you are writing about. The only exception might be in story telling, but that only works because there is some kind of context assumed or it works as a tool. It makes no sense for this "culture" to think less of research or any writing that intends to persuade because it starts with a introduction or summary. Anyone who starts with a summary of what is going to follow will be a more effective communicator. They would be missing out on lots of writing that is done this way. Your first paragraph or sentence will always be an introduction. If you choose to not take advantage of it to set the context of what follows the writing will be more confusing or require a second read through. Its like wandering through a forest vs following a trail map. At work, writing something that needs automatically needs a second read through is a problem. I guess i have hard time believing this culture exists the way is presented, and isn't being misinterpreted. > It is pretty easy to read email or argument without knowing the conclusion up front. Its not, that was the point of the thread were commenting on > Research papers are specific writing with specific rules. I dont really think they are in general example of good or persuasive writing. This is one example, it has rules because those are effective at communicating. How can you just write it off like that? With no reason other then you think it doesn't count?
      • watwut 6y ago
        > It doesn't make sense as being cultural because there plenty of real examples of effective writing that starts with what you are writing about. That argument does not make sense. > It makes no sense for this "culture" to think less of research or any writing that intends to persuade because it starts with a introduction or summary. And it does not make sense for you to look down at writing that puts conclusion to the end going with arguments first. It is just an habit and meaningless difference, that is all. > This is one example, it has rules because those are effective at communicating. How can you just write it off like that? With no reason other then you think it doesn't count? Researchers and their papers are not effective at communicating. That a thing that researches complain about periodically. In any case, corporate mail is not research paper. Among other things, it is supposed to be significantly shorter. Just like it is not newspaper article.
        • tayo42 6y ago
          Can you show me something written that doesn't have an introduction that includes a summary of what's to come
      • hibbelig 6y ago
        > It doesn't make sense as being cultural because there plenty of real examples of effective writing that starts with what you are writing about. This is a non-argument. In the US, writing is considered effective if you put the bottom line up front. GP wrote that BLUFfing is considered offensive in their culture. Now you respond that lots of people like BLUFfing. Now you say it's not culture-dependent but a universal truth that BLUF is better. Well, other cultures disagree.
        • tayo42 6y ago
          Bluf seems to be a specific thing, no one mentioned that in the thread I'm commenting on. The post that I responded to suggested having an intro with a summary of what's to follow is offensive
      • thatcat 6y ago
  • ako 6y ago
    This approach depends very much on culture. For example, US culture is very much, get to the point, start with the conclusion. German culture requires you to outline how you got to the conclusion. Interesting book on this topic: The culture map, by Erin Meyer. (https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/1610392760/ https://www.amazon.com/Culture-Map-INTL-ED-Decoding/dp/16103...) It has a whole chapter on this topic: 3 - Why versus How, the art of persuasion in the multicultural world.
    • tayo42 6y ago
      German culture requires no introduction in any writing? Am I talking about the same thing as everyone else commenting? Anything you write will always have a first sentence or paragraph. Your saying it's offensive to use that to give an overview of what's to come and to set the tone of the writing?
      • ako 6y ago
        Looks like i wasn't very clear. The difference according to the book is that if you want to convice an audience of something, e.g, result of a study, americans are more interested in the results and how to apply it. Germans want to understand how you got to the results, what the process was behind it so they can understand that your results are correct.
• tchalla 6y ago
  > One absolutely should not do what you've mentioned in my location. Here we lay out the arguments, and the conclusion at the end. The reverse is seen as jumping the gun, and not being well reasoned. It is looked down upon, and frequently discounted immediately. I would like to understand why the reverse is "jumping the gun". I am assuming the arguments have not changed, the reasoning remains the same. Why is a mere change of order "jumping the gun"?
  • watwut 6y ago
    Theory: If people read conclusion first, then people tend to evaluate whether they agree or not after reading conclusion. Emotional reaction toward conclusion will bias interpretation of arguments. The remaining arguments are more likely to be accepted or rejected based on what you know conclusion is. So instead of asking "is this true", people will start either with "I am looking for nitpick cause I see this is going toward bad conclusion" or with "yeah sure, it shows what I think". However, they will still feel like they evaluated arguments on merit. If the conclusion is last, people can and some will go back to arguments to bias them, but it is easier to see what they are doing.
  • cik 6y ago
    While the solution may be valuable, there's more value in reading the work to get there. Rarely is the value a decision, inasmuch as the path to the decision. By first declaring a solution to a problem, you're priming the other individual. Depending on their personality you're priming them to be for, or against your decision. By articulating the reasons, methods, and considerations that went into a decision, you're slowly and softly building an argument. Individuals are less likely to have an instinctive reaction to something this way. At the very least, it's proven (yes, as in measured) to be the case here.
    • unbalancedevh 6y ago
      I have experience at several companies with many different cultures, and I don't know of anyone who likes to slog through the details before getting to what the final problem or solution is. People just don't have time for that. Putting the important part first serves the dual purpose of quickly informing people who aren't interested in the details, and telling them up front why they might care about reading the details. It's like having an abstract or a blurb to briefly summarize for management. Similarly, if you need someone to take action based on the result, you don't put it at the end where nobody's going to read it. You put it at the beginning, first thing, and then build up the background.
• rkangel 6y ago
  That's a really interesting counter-example to what I've learned as the best way to write. Can I ask what culture you're referring to?