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> Those who have kids know. Those who don’t just will never understand. Oh come on, I was agreeing with your comment until this totally unnecessary condescensi

by mqrs 6y ago

> Those who have kids know. Those who don’t just will never understand. Oh come on, I was agreeing with your comment until this totally unnecessary condescension. Part of being a mature person (which you imply to claim you are) is the knowledge that whatever you know isn’t necessarily special to your experience, and that other people may arrive at it through a different set of experiences. In this case, being proud of someone whom you love and whose well-being you actively contributed to isn’t an exclusive domain of parents or step-parents, but also of teachers and caretakers in orphanages who are capable of fulfilling the role. “Having a kid” isn’t a requirement here.

tuatoru 6y ago
For myself, having kids taught me things about myself that I'd have been happier never knowing. Not a better person, just happier. On balance the knowledge is worth it to me.
- sizzle 6y ago
  That you'd be happier never knowing? I'm curious what some insights are you learned from your journey.
  - touisteur 6y ago
    Not the parent but the birth of my kids and their growing up 'caused' a cascade childhood trauma to bubble up. It was overwhelming for months and it messed me up for years, including bouts of depression and lots of trauma purges. Not the kids' doing, just some mirror effect, situations triggering and unlocking memories. And I feel it's even worse if you try alternative, progressive education methods, that give lots of agency to children, that focus on understanding the emotional state of mind, on accepting everyone's emotions without judgement, with infinite patience, the absolute minimum of coercion, and go so much in opposition to the way I was 'raised'. Not saying I agree with parent that I'd be happier for sure in some ways, but I sure didn't expect so much psychological pain in addition to the hard work of raising kids.
    - sizzle 6y ago
      The is very profound, thank you for sharing what to expect. I also share childhood trauma and your perspective on the current generation and state of what is acceptable in parenting as being a little too alien in comparison to my childhood where my parents were manipulative and addicted to their own vices so I escaped playing outside all day with neighborhood friends. Nowadays helicopter parenting, ubiquitous computing/gaming, phone/social media addiction and instant gratification have eroded the working memory of the younger generation. It's only time until we realize it's akin to drug addiction and the smoking kills revelation of our times.
      - touisteur 6y ago
        Heavy but hopeful reading: https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/self/trauma-and-cptsd-101/ https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/self/trauma-and-cptsd-10... "[...] each time psychology, psychiatry, and psychotherapy have begun to take trauma seriously, it has been shut down by people denying that it’s even a thing, and suggesting that those who are traumatised are making it up or exaggerating its impact. When Freud first published a paper pointing out that most of the people with mental health struggles he was working with had experienced childhood and/or adult sexual abuse and assault, he was ignored and shut down. He went on to shift to a theory that suggested his patients had fantasised those things: they couldn’t possibly actually had happened. This is pretty terrifying now that we know the statistics on the prevalence of abuse and assault." My new therapist asks 2-3x per session 'but no one raised a fuss with CPS'? What? I was very well treated compared to most kids from my neighbourhood & cohort. I was fed, clothed, and my health was somehow cared for, at least when obviously sick. Sleeping in my own bed in a stable home, a roof over my head. Not to much abuse, at least not everyday. Most of my mates didn't have this luck. The slaps in school by their parents, the pulled hair or ears to obtain compliance, the insults, pushing around, threats of sleeping on the ground or outside, the black eyes, belt scars, the never washed clothes and body, the 'forgotten' breakfasts or dinners, the rotten teeth, the neglected vision problems... I mean it wasn't Oliver Twist but some of us had it GOOD. Gimme helicopter parenting and too many activities. The pendulum hasn't swung that much on that side than it had on the other... Sorry, I hate the 'helicopter parenting' expression. FWIW I agree about our modern vices. Phones, twitter, HN, everything-gamification...
gabereiser 6y ago
Very very true... in this case, think of “having kids” as possession.
exolymph 6y ago
Au contraire, maturity entails realizing that if you haven't experienced something, you don't know what it's like. That's certainly true of creating a new human being.

by mqrs 6y ago

tuatoru 6y ago

For myself, having kids taught me things about myself that I'd have been happier never knowing. Not a better person, just happier. On balance the knowledge is worth it to me.

sizzle 6y ago
That you'd be happier never knowing? I'm curious what some insights are you learned from your journey.
- touisteur 6y ago
  Not the parent but the birth of my kids and their growing up 'caused' a cascade childhood trauma to bubble up. It was overwhelming for months and it messed me up for years, including bouts of depression and lots of trauma purges. Not the kids' doing, just some mirror effect, situations triggering and unlocking memories. And I feel it's even worse if you try alternative, progressive education methods, that give lots of agency to children, that focus on understanding the emotional state of mind, on accepting everyone's emotions without judgement, with infinite patience, the absolute minimum of coercion, and go so much in opposition to the way I was 'raised'. Not saying I agree with parent that I'd be happier for sure in some ways, but I sure didn't expect so much psychological pain in addition to the hard work of raising kids.
  - sizzle 6y ago
    The is very profound, thank you for sharing what to expect. I also share childhood trauma and your perspective on the current generation and state of what is acceptable in parenting as being a little too alien in comparison to my childhood where my parents were manipulative and addicted to their own vices so I escaped playing outside all day with neighborhood friends. Nowadays helicopter parenting, ubiquitous computing/gaming, phone/social media addiction and instant gratification have eroded the working memory of the younger generation. It's only time until we realize it's akin to drug addiction and the smoking kills revelation of our times.
    - touisteur 6y ago
      Heavy but hopeful reading: https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/self/trauma-and-cptsd-101/ https://www.rewriting-the-rules.com/self/trauma-and-cptsd-10... "[...] each time psychology, psychiatry, and psychotherapy have begun to take trauma seriously, it has been shut down by people denying that it’s even a thing, and suggesting that those who are traumatised are making it up or exaggerating its impact. When Freud first published a paper pointing out that most of the people with mental health struggles he was working with had experienced childhood and/or adult sexual abuse and assault, he was ignored and shut down. He went on to shift to a theory that suggested his patients had fantasised those things: they couldn’t possibly actually had happened. This is pretty terrifying now that we know the statistics on the prevalence of abuse and assault." My new therapist asks 2-3x per session 'but no one raised a fuss with CPS'? What? I was very well treated compared to most kids from my neighbourhood & cohort. I was fed, clothed, and my health was somehow cared for, at least when obviously sick. Sleeping in my own bed in a stable home, a roof over my head. Not to much abuse, at least not everyday. Most of my mates didn't have this luck. The slaps in school by their parents, the pulled hair or ears to obtain compliance, the insults, pushing around, threats of sleeping on the ground or outside, the black eyes, belt scars, the never washed clothes and body, the 'forgotten' breakfasts or dinners, the rotten teeth, the neglected vision problems... I mean it wasn't Oliver Twist but some of us had it GOOD. Gimme helicopter parenting and too many activities. The pendulum hasn't swung that much on that side than it had on the other... Sorry, I hate the 'helicopter parenting' expression. FWIW I agree about our modern vices. Phones, twitter, HN, everything-gamification...

gabereiser 6y ago

Very very true... in this case, think of “having kids” as possession.

exolymph 6y ago

Au contraire, maturity entails realizing that if you haven't experienced something, you don't know what it's like. That's certainly true of creating a new human being.