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"Rogue state" [0] is actually a defined term that Iran qualifies for because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. Also, Iran has participated regular

by iaw 6y ago

"Rogue state" [0] is actually a defined term that Iran qualifies for because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. Also, Iran has participated regularly in proxy wars including the one in Yemen with Saudi Arabia [1] so your thesis about aggression wars is a little misleading when they've participated in a proxy civil. Note that recently Israel claimed credit for killing an Al Qaeda leader who was living openly in Iran. I think Iran is too often scapegoated in the Western world but I also want to be realistic about where Iran is really at fault. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_proxy_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_prox...

boomboomsubban 6y ago
>is actually a defined term that Iran qualifies for because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. So something it stopped doing over a decade ago makes it a "rogue state?" >Also, Iran has participated regularly in proxy wars including the one in Yemen with Saudi Arabia [1] so your thesis about aggression wars is a little misleading when they've participated in a proxy civil Your source actually doesn't outline any concrete Iranian involvement in Yemen, just some Saudi accusations prior to their invasion. Even then, the US participation alone dwarfs the alleged Iranian involvement. >I think Iran is too often scapegoated in the Western world but I also want to be realistic about where Iran is really at fault. These are the two main issues they're scapegoated for, so this statement is a bit confusing.
- iaw 6y ago
  > So something it stopped doing over a decade ago makes it a "rogue state?" It was doing it last year after the US unilaterally pulled out of the agreement [0] > Your source actually doesn't outline any concrete Iranian involvement in Yemen, just some Saudi accusations prior to their invasion. Even then, the US participation alone dwarfs the alleged Iranian involvement. Iran never out and out talks about who they support and how. Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. > These are the two main issues they're scapegoated for, so this statement is a bit confusing. No, they're scapegoated as being terrorism funders/stronghold or attackers of "freedom" (whatever that means). When they're called out for actually doing something that the international community frowns upon that's not scapegoating. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/iran-announces-injection-of-uranium-gas-into-1044-centrifuges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/iran-announces...
  - fuoqi 6y ago
    >It was doing it last year after the US unilaterally pulled out of the agreement And who are we should thank for it? Iran clearly sees the difference between North Korea and Libya, and it clearly does not want to be the latter. The US stupid move was just the last droplet. Hopefully with the new administration the situation can be salvaged. >Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. Oh, wow. According to the Iraqi prime minister he was on a diplomatic mission to ease tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia. He was unlawfully (under both US and international law) assassinated in a clear and blatant violation of the Iraq sovereignty. And compare the Iran "meddling" with the US openly creating military bases in Syria without any authorization from the Syrian government (you think anything you like about it, but it's still an internationally recognized government) and open military support of rebel forces, often closely related to jihadists. Also we have the rejection of the Iraqi parliament′s call to withdraw US troops.
    - yyyk 6y ago
      >>Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. >Oh, wow. According to the Iraqi prime minister he was on a diplomatic mission to ease tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia... He was on both the US and EU anti-terrorism list, and there was a Security Council resolution banning him from traveling outside Iran. >And compare the Iran "meddling" with the US openly creating military bases in Syria without any authorization from the Syrian government Iran has military bases and militias on Syria predating the US ones, these took direct part in the mass civilian deaths there. >Also we have the rejection of the Iraqi parliament′s call to withdraw US troops. Their call was non binding since the agreement was with the Iraqi government (imagine the GOP Senate calling for something ignoring President Biden's wishes). The US army does not wish to withdraw since ISIS still exists, we saw what happened last time Iraq tried to deal with them alone.
      - fuoqi 6y ago
        >He was on both the US and EU anti-terrorism list No, only the US designated him as a terrorist and IIRC on a really flimsy grounds (as in CIA operatives could be designated terrorists using similar criteria). EU only personally sanctioned him. >there was a Security Council resolution banning him from traveling outside Iran These restrictions were lifted in 2015 as part of the Iran nuclear deal framework. US unilateral withdrawal didn't change the fact that UN sanctions have been lifted. >Their call was non binding since the agreement was with the Iraqi government The call was aimed at the government, which due to the US pressure ignored will of the Iraqi people represented by the democratically elected parliament. >since ISIS still exists ISIS got chance to exist mostly due to the US chaotic meddling in the region. Not only it weakened Iraq by direct invasion, but it also fueled the Syrian civil war. Syria is perfectly able to not let ISIS reappearance with the Russian help and negotiated relationship with the Kurds, but I don't see the US leaving Syria any time soon.
stainforth 6y ago
Saudia Arabia can start a war but Iran must mind its own business with its neighbors?
- iaw 6y ago
  Nope, Iran has every right to behave as it does but that also gives the collection of countries that act in congress together the leeway to label it a 'rogue state'. The center point of this subthread was whether such a label is appropriate.
chmod775 6y ago
>because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. Who sold you this lie? This is Iraq all over again.

by iaw 6y ago

boomboomsubban 6y ago

>is actually a defined term that Iran qualifies for because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. So something it stopped doing over a decade ago makes it a "rogue state?" >Also, Iran has participated regularly in proxy wars including the one in Yemen with Saudi Arabia [1] so your thesis about aggression wars is a little misleading when they've participated in a proxy civil Your source actually doesn't outline any concrete Iranian involvement in Yemen, just some Saudi accusations prior to their invasion. Even then, the US participation alone dwarfs the alleged Iranian involvement. >I think Iran is too often scapegoated in the Western world but I also want to be realistic about where Iran is really at fault. These are the two main issues they're scapegoated for, so this statement is a bit confusing.

iaw 6y ago
> So something it stopped doing over a decade ago makes it a "rogue state?" It was doing it last year after the US unilaterally pulled out of the agreement [0] > Your source actually doesn't outline any concrete Iranian involvement in Yemen, just some Saudi accusations prior to their invasion. Even then, the US participation alone dwarfs the alleged Iranian involvement. Iran never out and out talks about who they support and how. Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. > These are the two main issues they're scapegoated for, so this statement is a bit confusing. No, they're scapegoated as being terrorism funders/stronghold or attackers of "freedom" (whatever that means). When they're called out for actually doing something that the international community frowns upon that's not scapegoating. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/iran-announces-injection-of-uranium-gas-into-1044-centrifuges https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/05/iran-announces...
- fuoqi 6y ago
  >It was doing it last year after the US unilaterally pulled out of the agreement And who are we should thank for it? Iran clearly sees the difference between North Korea and Libya, and it clearly does not want to be the latter. The US stupid move was just the last droplet. Hopefully with the new administration the situation can be salvaged. >Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. Oh, wow. According to the Iraqi prime minister he was on a diplomatic mission to ease tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia. He was unlawfully (under both US and international law) assassinated in a clear and blatant violation of the Iraq sovereignty. And compare the Iran "meddling" with the US openly creating military bases in Syria without any authorization from the Syrian government (you think anything you like about it, but it's still an internationally recognized government) and open military support of rebel forces, often closely related to jihadists. Also we have the rejection of the Iraqi parliament′s call to withdraw US troops.
  - yyyk 6y ago
    >>Note that Qasem Soleimeini was killed in Iraq. The point being the Iran meddles in their neighbors affairs. >Oh, wow. According to the Iraqi prime minister he was on a diplomatic mission to ease tensions between Iran and Saudi Arabia... He was on both the US and EU anti-terrorism list, and there was a Security Council resolution banning him from traveling outside Iran. >And compare the Iran "meddling" with the US openly creating military bases in Syria without any authorization from the Syrian government Iran has military bases and militias on Syria predating the US ones, these took direct part in the mass civilian deaths there. >Also we have the rejection of the Iraqi parliament′s call to withdraw US troops. Their call was non binding since the agreement was with the Iraqi government (imagine the GOP Senate calling for something ignoring President Biden's wishes). The US army does not wish to withdraw since ISIS still exists, we saw what happened last time Iraq tried to deal with them alone.
    - fuoqi 6y ago
      >He was on both the US and EU anti-terrorism list No, only the US designated him as a terrorist and IIRC on a really flimsy grounds (as in CIA operatives could be designated terrorists using similar criteria). EU only personally sanctioned him. >there was a Security Council resolution banning him from traveling outside Iran These restrictions were lifted in 2015 as part of the Iran nuclear deal framework. US unilateral withdrawal didn't change the fact that UN sanctions have been lifted. >Their call was non binding since the agreement was with the Iraqi government The call was aimed at the government, which due to the US pressure ignored will of the Iraqi people represented by the democratically elected parliament. >since ISIS still exists ISIS got chance to exist mostly due to the US chaotic meddling in the region. Not only it weakened Iraq by direct invasion, but it also fueled the Syrian civil war. Syria is perfectly able to not let ISIS reappearance with the Russian help and negotiated relationship with the Kurds, but I don't see the US leaving Syria any time soon.

stainforth 6y ago

Saudia Arabia can start a war but Iran must mind its own business with its neighbors?

iaw 6y ago
Nope, Iran has every right to behave as it does but that also gives the collection of countries that act in congress together the leeway to label it a 'rogue state'. The center point of this subthread was whether such a label is appropriate.

chmod775 6y ago

>because of its efforts to proliferate nuclear weapons. Who sold you this lie? This is Iraq all over again.