4 ms·

I never understood why browsers don't just go ahead and load websites with expired certificates and merely provide milder warnings for a few weeks/months. The e

I never understood why browsers don't just go ahead and load websites with expired certificates and merely provide milder warnings for a few weeks/months. The expiration date doesn't mark any meaningful real-world event that indicates the private key might be compromised... it's just an expiration date. Why set off all the alarms and make the user freak out and make it so hard to visit the site as soon as the certificate becomes 1 millisecond too old? It seems to violate common sense.

whoisjohnkid 6y ago
That would open a new vector of attack where an attacker would simply have to compromise any of your previous certs; not necessarily an easy feat but still a new vector
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  No it doesn't? All that happens is the previous cert would be accepted with a milder warning for a few weeks (not permanently) after you get a new one. It's just a small grace window to let users still be able to use the site. Just like an expiration date on your milk. There's no need to toss it out immediately just because an extra nanosecond passed.
  - lilyball 6y ago
    This would require everyone to understand that previous certs still require high-security for at least a few weeks post expiration. This is not something we can rely on people understanding.
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      Allowing bypass is the old way of doing things, and many non-browsers still allow it, so you should ideally hold on to old certs indefinitely, but at least for a short while.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - darkerside 6y ago
      I think this is reasonable for people dealing with SSL, like expecting a mechanic to know you change an oil filter when you change the oil.
    - zeroimpl 6y ago
      I'm pretty sure that most people, upon having one of their certs expire, do not find the private key and release it publicly. In fact they often generate a new cert from the same key...
    - bendbro 6y ago
      Alternatively we could have people understand all certificates, regardless of expiration, are high security. Is there any reason someone would want to publicize an expired certificate? Additionally, I can think of a few existing reasons someone would avoid publicizing an expired certificate.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    Training users that "mild" warnings can be ignored is very bad for security, as users have trouble differentiating severity. Hsts does not even give users a choice because nobody could come up with a scary enough warning.
    - mehrdadn 6y ago
      I'd argue the problem might be the opposite: people are willing to differentiate on some matters (not everything), but security folks fail to help them do so. They treat every warning like DEFCON 1, as if an expired certificate is remotely similar to a compromised one. People already understand expiration dates aren't exact. They deal with it in all kinds of places. It's not a new concept.
      - bawolff 6y ago
        So what exactly do you want changed? A warning already comes up explaining what happened that a user can click through. Unless the website has opted into strict mode, in which case warnings cannot be bypassed, which seems very reasonable. > People already understand expiration dates aren't exact. They deal with it in all kinds of places. It's not a new concept. Try crossing the border with an expired passport and see how non-exact expiry dates are.
        mehrdadn 6y ago
        > So what exactly do you want changed? A warning already comes up explaining what happened that a user can click through. Unless the website has opted into strict mode, in which case warnings cannot be bypassed, which seems very reasonable. I'm saying load the website by default; just display a warning that isn't too intrusive or alarming. As a starting point (not suggesting this is peak UX; it's just a starting point for the discussion): it could be just a small balloon notification on the padlock with black text, nothing in red or otherwise alarming (or maybe becoming more red as more time has passed). A little bit like the balloon Chrome displays for "Disable developer-mode extensions". It still lets you use the browser but also gets its point across. > Try crossing the border with an expired passport and see how non-exact expiry dates are. You couldn't think of expiration dates for things that aren't at the extreme? Maybe for actions whose gravity is a little bit more comparable to visiting a website than, say, crossing an international border?
- stefan_ 6y ago
  In a world where you can simply compromise a cert of your choice we can get rid of the TLS theatre altogether. No, the world we have is one where these expiry mishaps happen all the time, and everyone would be better served if certs had a warning expiration date in addition to the red alert one. It's the old "don't delete a customer the second they are late on a single payment" thing that everyone long recognizes as good practice.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    A difference is non expired compromised certificates are usually revoked. Expired compromised certificates are generally not. I think whole thing could be solved by having soft and hard expiry dates. It is an extensible format after all.
paxys 6y ago
Why should every browser pick a random expiration date to enforce when there is already one agreed upon by everyone and embedded in the certificate?
- im3w1l 6y ago
  Everyone is on lets encrypt nowadays, which means they had no say in they expiration date. They merely said yes to "take it or leave it".
  - aeyes 6y ago
    Let's Encrypt users aren't going to have cert expiration problems though, the certs expire every 90 days forcing users to implement auto renewal from the very beginning. Let's Encrypt provides tools to do it while cert renewal with other certificate authorities is manual in most cases.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      I have personally experienced letsencrypt auto renewal failures. And I know other people on whose hobbyist servers it has failed too. I don't remember how it happened - maybe it was user error, but even so it only manifested 3 months after set up, which is not always the most convenient time. And then it's 3 more months to see if the fix truly worked.
      - apple4ever 6y ago
        Same here. In my case it was a failure of my DNS providers API and lack of monitoring. Worked fine at first, failed eventually.
- t0astbread 6y ago
  There might be an official standardized explanation for this but the way I see it, certificate expiry has two reasons: 1) It's an assurance that the verification of identities/servers (or whatever) behind the certificate is at least somewhat recent 2) Certificates imply a loose agreement between the certificate holder and the world that the certificate holder keeps the private key safe. The expiry date automatically ends that agreement. Time is relevant in both cases but it's not that relevant that the timing is exact in web browsing. Identity verification is still about as fresh one day after expiry. The second case is a bit more critical but chances are certificate holders don't leak their private keys immediately after expiry. Giving a "grace period" with noticeable but non-blocking warnings (something like the "this site recently had an account breach" popup in Firefox perhaps) might cause website operators to find out about the problem without disrupting the service. It would be a good idea to standardize the length of the grace period. Off the top of my head I can only think of one situation that might turn problematic and that is when an expired certificate gets compromised. I'm not familiar with how CAs do it but I hope renewal automatically revokes the renewed certificate already. It would also need to be possible to explicitly revoke an expired certificate if something like a grace period existed.
bawolff 6y ago
I think it makes more sense to give warnings in the 72 hours prior to expiration, rather than after. At least browser console warnings. Or have two expires in a cert - soft and hard.
bisby 6y ago
That's just... moving the expiration date. Why not provide those milder warnings BEFORE the current expiration date? If there's just an arbitrary point in time where after which we start warning people and then another point where the cert expires... Why move "expiration" around.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > That's just... moving the expiration date. No it's not, you still get a (slightly) nagging warning. Just one that's much milder (without the red alert, fear-mongering, etc.) and still lets people use the site for a while. > Why not provide those milder warnings BEFORE the current expiration date? I indeed almost suggested this, but the problem is the site owner hasn't done anything wrong in that case, so the warning would be an actual false alarm.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    If you are a site operator whose using a certificate that expires in under a day, you are doing something wrong.
Klathmon 6y ago
I feel like it would be better to show a warning earlier rather than after it expires. Browsers could start showing warnings that a cert is expiring soon when something like 5% of the cert lifetime is left (with a max of like 1 month for some of those crazy long lifetime certs).
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > I feel like it would be better to show a warning earlier rather than after it expires. The problem is this is an actual false alarm in that case; nothing has actually gone wrong. Nobody likes to get a warning about something that's still good before its expiration.
mobilio 6y ago
Certificates have a great timespan like "do not use before" and "do not use after". So you can't simply shown outdated certs because this make time totally useless. But you also can't shown cert from the future. Other sad news - new browsers set that certs can have lifetime only for year and month: https://www.michalspacek.com/maximum-https-certificate-lifetime-to-be-1-year-soon https://www.michalspacek.com/maximum-https-certificate-lifet... to effective fight against certs that are too long lifetime. So this make a window for installing new cert exactly 42 days. And many people will fail on this trap soon.

whoisjohnkid 6y ago

That would open a new vector of attack where an attacker would simply have to compromise any of your previous certs; not necessarily an easy feat but still a new vector

mehrdadn 6y ago
No it doesn't? All that happens is the previous cert would be accepted with a milder warning for a few weeks (not permanently) after you get a new one. It's just a small grace window to let users still be able to use the site. Just like an expiration date on your milk. There's no need to toss it out immediately just because an extra nanosecond passed.
- lilyball 6y ago
  This would require everyone to understand that previous certs still require high-security for at least a few weeks post expiration. This is not something we can rely on people understanding.
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    Allowing bypass is the old way of doing things, and many non-browsers still allow it, so you should ideally hold on to old certs indefinitely, but at least for a short while.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - darkerside 6y ago
    I think this is reasonable for people dealing with SSL, like expecting a mechanic to know you change an oil filter when you change the oil.
  - zeroimpl 6y ago
    I'm pretty sure that most people, upon having one of their certs expire, do not find the private key and release it publicly. In fact they often generate a new cert from the same key...
  - bendbro 6y ago
    Alternatively we could have people understand all certificates, regardless of expiration, are high security. Is there any reason someone would want to publicize an expired certificate? Additionally, I can think of a few existing reasons someone would avoid publicizing an expired certificate.
- bawolff 6y ago
  Training users that "mild" warnings can be ignored is very bad for security, as users have trouble differentiating severity. Hsts does not even give users a choice because nobody could come up with a scary enough warning.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    I'd argue the problem might be the opposite: people are willing to differentiate on some matters (not everything), but security folks fail to help them do so. They treat every warning like DEFCON 1, as if an expired certificate is remotely similar to a compromised one. People already understand expiration dates aren't exact. They deal with it in all kinds of places. It's not a new concept.
    - bawolff 6y ago
      So what exactly do you want changed? A warning already comes up explaining what happened that a user can click through. Unless the website has opted into strict mode, in which case warnings cannot be bypassed, which seems very reasonable. > People already understand expiration dates aren't exact. They deal with it in all kinds of places. It's not a new concept. Try crossing the border with an expired passport and see how non-exact expiry dates are.
      - mehrdadn 6y ago
        > So what exactly do you want changed? A warning already comes up explaining what happened that a user can click through. Unless the website has opted into strict mode, in which case warnings cannot be bypassed, which seems very reasonable. I'm saying load the website by default; just display a warning that isn't too intrusive or alarming. As a starting point (not suggesting this is peak UX; it's just a starting point for the discussion): it could be just a small balloon notification on the padlock with black text, nothing in red or otherwise alarming (or maybe becoming more red as more time has passed). A little bit like the balloon Chrome displays for "Disable developer-mode extensions". It still lets you use the browser but also gets its point across. > Try crossing the border with an expired passport and see how non-exact expiry dates are. You couldn't think of expiration dates for things that aren't at the extreme? Maybe for actions whose gravity is a little bit more comparable to visiting a website than, say, crossing an international border?
stefan_ 6y ago
In a world where you can simply compromise a cert of your choice we can get rid of the TLS theatre altogether. No, the world we have is one where these expiry mishaps happen all the time, and everyone would be better served if certs had a warning expiration date in addition to the red alert one. It's the old "don't delete a customer the second they are late on a single payment" thing that everyone long recognizes as good practice.
- bawolff 6y ago
  A difference is non expired compromised certificates are usually revoked. Expired compromised certificates are generally not. I think whole thing could be solved by having soft and hard expiry dates. It is an extensible format after all.

paxys 6y ago

Why should every browser pick a random expiration date to enforce when there is already one agreed upon by everyone and embedded in the certificate?

im3w1l 6y ago
Everyone is on lets encrypt nowadays, which means they had no say in they expiration date. They merely said yes to "take it or leave it".
- aeyes 6y ago
  Let's Encrypt users aren't going to have cert expiration problems though, the certs expire every 90 days forcing users to implement auto renewal from the very beginning. Let's Encrypt provides tools to do it while cert renewal with other certificate authorities is manual in most cases.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    I have personally experienced letsencrypt auto renewal failures. And I know other people on whose hobbyist servers it has failed too. I don't remember how it happened - maybe it was user error, but even so it only manifested 3 months after set up, which is not always the most convenient time. And then it's 3 more months to see if the fix truly worked.
    - apple4ever 6y ago
      Same here. In my case it was a failure of my DNS providers API and lack of monitoring. Worked fine at first, failed eventually.
t0astbread 6y ago
There might be an official standardized explanation for this but the way I see it, certificate expiry has two reasons: 1) It's an assurance that the verification of identities/servers (or whatever) behind the certificate is at least somewhat recent 2) Certificates imply a loose agreement between the certificate holder and the world that the certificate holder keeps the private key safe. The expiry date automatically ends that agreement. Time is relevant in both cases but it's not that relevant that the timing is exact in web browsing. Identity verification is still about as fresh one day after expiry. The second case is a bit more critical but chances are certificate holders don't leak their private keys immediately after expiry. Giving a "grace period" with noticeable but non-blocking warnings (something like the "this site recently had an account breach" popup in Firefox perhaps) might cause website operators to find out about the problem without disrupting the service. It would be a good idea to standardize the length of the grace period. Off the top of my head I can only think of one situation that might turn problematic and that is when an expired certificate gets compromised. I'm not familiar with how CAs do it but I hope renewal automatically revokes the renewed certificate already. It would also need to be possible to explicitly revoke an expired certificate if something like a grace period existed.

bawolff 6y ago

I think it makes more sense to give warnings in the 72 hours prior to expiration, rather than after. At least browser console warnings. Or have two expires in a cert - soft and hard.

bisby 6y ago

That's just... moving the expiration date. Why not provide those milder warnings BEFORE the current expiration date? If there's just an arbitrary point in time where after which we start warning people and then another point where the cert expires... Why move "expiration" around.

mehrdadn 6y ago
> That's just... moving the expiration date. No it's not, you still get a (slightly) nagging warning. Just one that's much milder (without the red alert, fear-mongering, etc.) and still lets people use the site for a while. > Why not provide those milder warnings BEFORE the current expiration date? I indeed almost suggested this, but the problem is the site owner hasn't done anything wrong in that case, so the warning would be an actual false alarm.
- bawolff 6y ago
  If you are a site operator whose using a certificate that expires in under a day, you are doing something wrong.

Klathmon 6y ago

I feel like it would be better to show a warning earlier rather than after it expires. Browsers could start showing warnings that a cert is expiring soon when something like 5% of the cert lifetime is left (with a max of like 1 month for some of those crazy long lifetime certs).

mehrdadn 6y ago
> I feel like it would be better to show a warning earlier rather than after it expires. The problem is this is an actual false alarm in that case; nothing has actually gone wrong. Nobody likes to get a warning about something that's still good before its expiration.

mobilio 6y ago

Certificates have a great timespan like "do not use before" and "do not use after". So you can't simply shown outdated certs because this make time totally useless. But you also can't shown cert from the future. Other sad news - new browsers set that certs can have lifetime only for year and month: https://www.michalspacek.com/maximum-https-certificate-lifetime-to-be-1-year-soon https://www.michalspacek.com/maximum-https-certificate-lifet... to effective fight against certs that are too long lifetime. So this make a window for installing new cert exactly 42 days. And many people will fail on this trap soon.