4 ms·

This is the dark side of unions - protecting their worst members. I don't know of a good way out of this besides rebooting police unions/police associations an

by csours 6y ago

This is the dark side of unions - protecting their worst members. I don't know of a good way out of this besides rebooting police unions/police associations and allowing real civilian involvement and at least partial control at the leadership level.

dantheman 6y ago
How about don't have public sector unions at all? How about having standards for government employees and firing bad ones? Maybe allow multiple police forces to compete and allow people to choose the one that polices their area and thus receive funding. Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated.
- novok 6y ago
  A federal or state prosecution service for police malpractice with teeth I think is the ultimate thing that keeps this shit in line. With separate lines of business, separate people they work with and separate career incentives which are only about locking up criminal police, FBI or even the NSA / CIA, complete with undercover operations.
- csours 6y ago
  How about don't have public sector unions at all? - I don't like this idea. I like the protections that unions have brought for workers, I just think public sector unions need a new model. How about having standards for government employees and firing bad ones? - There should definitely be a process for this, and I'm pretty sure there is, so it's more of a question of the process parameters, and then after firing, what kind of job can that person get? There's a history of bad cops being re-hired as cops or private security in other jurisdictions. (Not just cops, but that's the example here) Maybe allow multiple police forces to compete and allow people to choose the one that polices their area and thus receive funding. - I don't like this one at all. Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated. - Strongly agree with this one.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    > Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated. - Strongly agree with this one. one of the striking details from the article is how records of police misconduct are protected to the point where even the chief of police can't necessarily look at them! the insurance idea is an interesting one, but it only has a chance of achieving its goal if the insurance company is able to look at these records and set premiums accordingly. if a flat premium is charged, I fear the municipality would just increase salaries to offset the premiums (or even pay them directly).
Synaesthesia 6y ago
It's the unions yes but also the judges ruling in their favour
- justin66 6y ago
  It's also the officials who sign the collective bargaining agreements with the unions. (something IMO that tends to be overlooked in most conversations about problematic unions: someone sitting across the table agreed to whatever bullshit rules are protecting or enabling the union)
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    I wouldn't be surprised if the local officials are genuinely afraid of the officers they "oversee". the article noted that officers ticketed the vehicles of local officials as a persuasion technique. a somewhat petty abuse of power, but possibly just the tip of the iceberg...
dejavuagain 6y ago
There's something wrong at the human level here. Systems that protect the worst of the bunch. Doctors lawyers politicians managers There's something more primal going on here. Maybe we just protect our tribe and some of those we protect are bad, then those outside the tribe find the worst of them to say the whole tribe is bad.

by csours 6y ago

dantheman 6y ago

How about don't have public sector unions at all? How about having standards for government employees and firing bad ones? Maybe allow multiple police forces to compete and allow people to choose the one that polices their area and thus receive funding. Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated.

novok 6y ago
A federal or state prosecution service for police malpractice with teeth I think is the ultimate thing that keeps this shit in line. With separate lines of business, separate people they work with and separate career incentives which are only about locking up criminal police, FBI or even the NSA / CIA, complete with undercover operations.
csours 6y ago
How about don't have public sector unions at all? - I don't like this idea. I like the protections that unions have brought for workers, I just think public sector unions need a new model. How about having standards for government employees and firing bad ones? - There should definitely be a process for this, and I'm pretty sure there is, so it's more of a question of the process parameters, and then after firing, what kind of job can that person get? There's a history of bad cops being re-hired as cops or private security in other jurisdictions. (Not just cops, but that's the example here) Maybe allow multiple police forces to compete and allow people to choose the one that polices their area and thus receive funding. - I don't like this one at all. Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated. - Strongly agree with this one.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > Maybe make police carry malpractice insurance and that way bad behavior has a cost, and those harmed are compensated. - Strongly agree with this one. one of the striking details from the article is how records of police misconduct are protected to the point where even the chief of police can't necessarily look at them! the insurance idea is an interesting one, but it only has a chance of achieving its goal if the insurance company is able to look at these records and set premiums accordingly. if a flat premium is charged, I fear the municipality would just increase salaries to offset the premiums (or even pay them directly).

Synaesthesia 6y ago

It's the unions yes but also the judges ruling in their favour

justin66 6y ago
It's also the officials who sign the collective bargaining agreements with the unions. (something IMO that tends to be overlooked in most conversations about problematic unions: someone sitting across the table agreed to whatever bullshit rules are protecting or enabling the union)
- leetcrew 6y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised if the local officials are genuinely afraid of the officers they "oversee". the article noted that officers ticketed the vehicles of local officials as a persuasion technique. a somewhat petty abuse of power, but possibly just the tip of the iceberg...

dejavuagain 6y ago

There's something wrong at the human level here. Systems that protect the worst of the bunch. Doctors lawyers politicians managers There's something more primal going on here. Maybe we just protect our tribe and some of those we protect are bad, then those outside the tribe find the worst of them to say the whole tribe is bad.