4 ms·

You've managed to miss the point again. > Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective. This was not the complaint. This was never

You've managed to miss the point again. > Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective. This was not the complaint. This was never the complaint. I was explicitly stating that when you claimed this was the complaint, you were misunderstanding. A story told about racism from a white persons POV is fine! What is less okay, and at a minimum needs to be taught in a larger context is a story about racism that treats race and racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it, and black characters who are flat. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied (especially when you draw in the larger context that Atticus was based on Harper Lee's father, and the novel was quasi-biographical). And it's not even conclusion that Scout draws on her own. She feels justice and fairness for all is good not because she learns through some experience, but because her father tells her so, and she greatly reveres him and respects his authority. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. Like I said, in part of a curriculum that focuses on race in America, I think TKAM is a vital book to teach, but if it's the only exposure to literature-that-focuses-on-race-in-america, which for a lot of people it will be, it's not a good tool, because you aren't going to get exposed to the criticism I just provided in a high school context.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. They're more likely to identify with the main character, and they can follow the logic that makes her think racism is bad. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. It starts like this, but they also go into the logic of why her dad thinks this way. She's a girl who learns from her family like all kids. If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  > Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. I don't know what you mean. I agree that there are tons of unsavory characters in the book. Atticus is not one of them. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. > If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. That sounds appealing, but consider that the book's "central" Black character's defining characteristic is that he's not a violent criminal. That's the depiction of black people in the book. This, like I said, makes racism this abstract thing. And especially now when you generally don't have lynch mobs, it's easy to write off the book's entire story as "well we don't do that today, racism is solved!", which is yet another reason the book draws criticism as a teaching tool. The book was perhaps good at a time when Black people were often presented as less-than-human, but now that they're usually just presented as less-human, less fully formed, different tools are better. > If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough. I actually already did that in this thread, and then explained why that doesn't fix the issue. There are likely already teachers using The Hate U Give or The Invisible man in their classrooms, but there are clearly some that aren't. Giving teachers a bunch of choices doesn't protect students from teachers who make bad choices. Ultimately, requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. Like, it's still staying in school libraries. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    Atticus is not [unsavory]. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. So now if a white man in media is shown pushing back against racism, he's looked down upon as a trope? This is racist and ridiculous. Damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont will not get white people on your side on this issue. requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. If such changes are made for racist reasons, then they deserve pushback. Current projections show that whites will be a minority in the US in 2048. If our society embraces anti-white discrimination and dogwhistles like this in the meantime, then there will be cultural reverberations for decades just as the cultural changes of the 70's reverberate through today.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. They're more likely to identify with the main character, and they can follow the logic that makes her think racism is bad. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. It starts like this, but they also go into the logic of why her dad thinks this way. She's a girl who learns from her family like all kids. If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough.

joshuamorton 6y ago
> Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. I don't know what you mean. I agree that there are tons of unsavory characters in the book. Atticus is not one of them. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. > If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. That sounds appealing, but consider that the book's "central" Black character's defining characteristic is that he's not a violent criminal. That's the depiction of black people in the book. This, like I said, makes racism this abstract thing. And especially now when you generally don't have lynch mobs, it's easy to write off the book's entire story as "well we don't do that today, racism is solved!", which is yet another reason the book draws criticism as a teaching tool. The book was perhaps good at a time when Black people were often presented as less-than-human, but now that they're usually just presented as less-human, less fully formed, different tools are better. > If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough. I actually already did that in this thread, and then explained why that doesn't fix the issue. There are likely already teachers using The Hate U Give or The Invisible man in their classrooms, but there are clearly some that aren't. Giving teachers a bunch of choices doesn't protect students from teachers who make bad choices. Ultimately, requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. Like, it's still staying in school libraries. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  Atticus is not [unsavory]. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. So now if a white man in media is shown pushing back against racism, he's looked down upon as a trope? This is racist and ridiculous. Damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-dont will not get white people on your side on this issue. requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. If such changes are made for racist reasons, then they deserve pushback. Current projections show that whites will be a minority in the US in 2048. If our society embraces anti-white discrimination and dogwhistles like this in the meantime, then there will be cultural reverberations for decades just as the cultural changes of the 70's reverberate through today.