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You don't actually address the claim gp made. The point of view isn't directly relevant to the story being told. Certainly it helps, but one could imagine a sto

You don't actually address the claim gp made. The point of view isn't directly relevant to the story being told. Certainly it helps, but one could imagine a story told from the daughters point of view where the black characters were more active. That's the criticism GP is leveling, and it's nuanced and well informed, and as far as I can tell you didn't actually understand it fully. Lashing out at them as ignorant when you failed to grasp the point they were making is really rude. There book might fit in a curriculum where you look at the representation of black people in media over time, say how they go bad or caricature to sort of flat and irrelevant to ultimately complex and human, but that's probably a college level course, if only because it would require devoting 3-4 books to the same subtopic.

TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
one could imagine a story told from the daughters point of view where the black characters were more active. That's the criticism GP is leveling I understood their point perfectly, and I'm saying it's wrong. Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective, and complaining about how there aren't enough central black roles in a story about a young privileged girl learning about racism isn't productive.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  You've managed to miss the point again. > Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective. This was not the complaint. This was never the complaint. I was explicitly stating that when you claimed this was the complaint, you were misunderstanding. A story told about racism from a white persons POV is fine! What is less okay, and at a minimum needs to be taught in a larger context is a story about racism that treats race and racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it, and black characters who are flat. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied (especially when you draw in the larger context that Atticus was based on Harper Lee's father, and the novel was quasi-biographical). And it's not even conclusion that Scout draws on her own. She feels justice and fairness for all is good not because she learns through some experience, but because her father tells her so, and she greatly reveres him and respects his authority. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. Like I said, in part of a curriculum that focuses on race in America, I think TKAM is a vital book to teach, but if it's the only exposure to literature-that-focuses-on-race-in-america, which for a lot of people it will be, it's not a good tool, because you aren't going to get exposed to the criticism I just provided in a high school context.
  - TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
    racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. They're more likely to identify with the main character, and they can follow the logic that makes her think racism is bad. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. It starts like this, but they also go into the logic of why her dad thinks this way. She's a girl who learns from her family like all kids. If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      > Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. I don't know what you mean. I agree that there are tons of unsavory characters in the book. Atticus is not one of them. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. > If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. That sounds appealing, but consider that the book's "central" Black character's defining characteristic is that he's not a violent criminal. That's the depiction of black people in the book. This, like I said, makes racism this abstract thing. And especially now when you generally don't have lynch mobs, it's easy to write off the book's entire story as "well we don't do that today, racism is solved!", which is yet another reason the book draws criticism as a teaching tool. The book was perhaps good at a time when Black people were often presented as less-than-human, but now that they're usually just presented as less-human, less fully formed, different tools are better. > If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough. I actually already did that in this thread, and then explained why that doesn't fix the issue. There are likely already teachers using The Hate U Give or The Invisible man in their classrooms, but there are clearly some that aren't. Giving teachers a bunch of choices doesn't protect students from teachers who make bad choices. Ultimately, requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. Like, it's still staying in school libraries. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior
deleted 6y ago
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TheAdamAndChe 6y ago

one could imagine a story told from the daughters point of view where the black characters were more active. That's the criticism GP is leveling I understood their point perfectly, and I'm saying it's wrong. Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective, and complaining about how there aren't enough central black roles in a story about a young privileged girl learning about racism isn't productive.

joshuamorton 6y ago
You've managed to miss the point again. > Racism doesn't only have to be described from black people's perspective. This was not the complaint. This was never the complaint. I was explicitly stating that when you claimed this was the complaint, you were misunderstanding. A story told about racism from a white persons POV is fine! What is less okay, and at a minimum needs to be taught in a larger context is a story about racism that treats race and racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it, and black characters who are flat. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied (especially when you draw in the larger context that Atticus was based on Harper Lee's father, and the novel was quasi-biographical). And it's not even conclusion that Scout draws on her own. She feels justice and fairness for all is good not because she learns through some experience, but because her father tells her so, and she greatly reveres him and respects his authority. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. Like I said, in part of a curriculum that focuses on race in America, I think TKAM is a vital book to teach, but if it's the only exposure to literature-that-focuses-on-race-in-america, which for a lot of people it will be, it's not a good tool, because you aren't going to get exposed to the criticism I just provided in a high school context.
- TheAdamAndChe 6y ago
  racism as a sort of thing-to-be-observed, both in that Scout is primarily "learning about racism" instead of experiencing it If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. They're more likely to identify with the main character, and they can follow the logic that makes her think racism is bad. The white-saviorness of Atticus can't really be denied Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. Scouts willingness to fight for justice isn't born out of a dislike of racism, but of a need to defend her dad. It starts like this, but they also go into the logic of why her dad thinks this way. She's a girl who learns from her family like all kids. If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    > Your bias is showing here, it's not cool.. There were plenty of unsavory characters in the book. I don't know what you mean. I agree that there are tons of unsavory characters in the book. Atticus is not one of them. He's portrayed as nearly flawless. This plays into the White Savior[0] trope. > If you're trying to teach white people and people who haven't experienced racism about racism, then this is a pretty good way to do it IMO. That sounds appealing, but consider that the book's "central" Black character's defining characteristic is that he's not a violent criminal. That's the depiction of black people in the book. This, like I said, makes racism this abstract thing. And especially now when you generally don't have lynch mobs, it's easy to write off the book's entire story as "well we don't do that today, racism is solved!", which is yet another reason the book draws criticism as a teaching tool. The book was perhaps good at a time when Black people were often presented as less-than-human, but now that they're usually just presented as less-human, less fully formed, different tools are better. > If there are other, better books to read, then recommend other books. Don't ban this one because you don't think it goes far enough. I actually already did that in this thread, and then explained why that doesn't fix the issue. There are likely already teachers using The Hate U Give or The Invisible man in their classrooms, but there are clearly some that aren't. Giving teachers a bunch of choices doesn't protect students from teachers who make bad choices. Ultimately, requiring that teachers use better teaching tools in their curriculums isn't the boogeyman it seems to be made out to be. Like, it's still staying in school libraries. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_savior

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]