6 ms·

Because you are not the ultimate decider of what to do with the machine. If you owned it, you could do anything outside of harm.

coldtea 6y ago
The whole concept of the machine is to be bought and optimized for running macOS.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  Right, the point is that it didn't use to be that way exclusively and now it is, so the new machines are more restrictive than previous Macs, which also ran macOS. In fact macOS itself is more restrictive nowdays than it used to be.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  I guess, but the "whole concept of the machine" that I'm typing this on was to run Windows... 7 (I think?); that's a completely artificial limitation, as shown by running Ubuntu on it years after the hardware went out of support.
  - sixstringtheory 6y ago
    I'm not sure what the problem is, then. You have a device that does what you (or the GP) want, which is to install any operating system, tinker, etc. Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      > Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it? I know you're joking, but I actually kind of am... Apple has a tremendous amount of industry influence, just see removal of the headphone jack.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      macOS deprecates support for Macs that are 5-7 years old with every release. I put Linux on them when new macOS releases no longer support them, and they're perfectly good machines afterwards. When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Apple has said they won't support running other operating systems on these ARM Macs unless they're virtualized.
      - coldtea 6y ago
        >When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
        > Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. Because ARM SoCs are fundamentally different than 32-bit and 64-bit x86 machines. The prime difference is the lack of an enumerable bus that even some ARM servers have, but are missing in ARM SoCs. I bought an x86 Mac when they were first released and I was able to boot an Ubuntu live CD when I got it. No work was needed to get a mainline kernel running on a x86 Mac, but work was needed to support things like Apple's SMC and cameras etc. > The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it. This is not true. Given the lack of an enumerable bus, someone will need to either fork the kernel and hardcode addresses for hardware, or someone will need documents to build out the DeviceTree. If hardware doesn't conform to existing standards, which nearly every ARM SoC follows their own, someone will need to do further work port the kernel to the machine. All the special deviations from standards that Apple baked into their hardware either needs to be documented accurately, or Apple needs to put the work in to get mainline Linux running on their SoCs. This is a general problem in the ARM SoC and Linux space, and is not unique to Apple's SoCs. There are millions of ARM SoCs that are either stuck on old kernel forks because vendors never put the work in to get mainline Linux to support their SoCs, or they will never run Linux at all, ever. I don't even think all of the Raspberry Pi models have mainline support yet, and those that do only have it because of the work put in by the RPi Foundation, which has access to some vendor documentation, but I don't believe all. To get an idea of the scope of the problem concerning Linux support on ARM SoCs, check out this presentation[1]. [1] https://elinux.org/images/a/ad/Arm-soc-checklist.pdf https://elinux.org/images/a/ad/Arm-soc-checklist.pdf
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Apple could optimize their hardware and software without making the machine locked down. Those are somewhat orthogonal issues.
jb1991 6y ago
But renting implies you are continuing to pay money and will some day need to return it.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  No, not necessarily. Renting just implies you're not the owner and need to follow someone's rules, (that of the actual owner), in order to make use of the rented item. 'Purchasing' a Kindle book or video on Amazon is also renting for example and yet it does not mean you have to continue paying and yet you don't own the copy as Amazon's going to decide how you're allowed to consume it and if they're going to let you keep it[1][2]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism 2 - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-users-dont-actually-own-purchased-prime-video-content https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-user...
  - jb1991 6y ago
    I don’t think purchasing a computer is the same thing as buying a movie from Amazon. The computer is always gonna be yours, and you can do whatever you want with it, even if Apple has made it very difficult to do so. But there are lots of objects in my house that would fall under that category as well, but I consider myself as their owner.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  There's a direct parallel you can draw between software licensing and leasing.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    But we’re not talking about software leases.

coldtea 6y ago

The whole concept of the machine is to be bought and optimized for running macOS.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
Right, the point is that it didn't use to be that way exclusively and now it is, so the new machines are more restrictive than previous Macs, which also ran macOS. In fact macOS itself is more restrictive nowdays than it used to be.
yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
I guess, but the "whole concept of the machine" that I'm typing this on was to run Windows... 7 (I think?); that's a completely artificial limitation, as shown by running Ubuntu on it years after the hardware went out of support.
- sixstringtheory 6y ago
  I'm not sure what the problem is, then. You have a device that does what you (or the GP) want, which is to install any operating system, tinker, etc. Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it? I know you're joking, but I actually kind of am... Apple has a tremendous amount of industry influence, just see removal of the headphone jack.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    macOS deprecates support for Macs that are 5-7 years old with every release. I put Linux on them when new macOS releases no longer support them, and they're perfectly good machines afterwards. When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Apple has said they won't support running other operating systems on these ARM Macs unless they're virtualized.
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it.
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        > Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. Because ARM SoCs are fundamentally different than 32-bit and 64-bit x86 machines. The prime difference is the lack of an enumerable bus that even some ARM servers have, but are missing in ARM SoCs. I bought an x86 Mac when they were first released and I was able to boot an Ubuntu live CD when I got it. No work was needed to get a mainline kernel running on a x86 Mac, but work was needed to support things like Apple's SMC and cameras etc. > The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it. This is not true. Given the lack of an enumerable bus, someone will need to either fork the kernel and hardcode addresses for hardware, or someone will need documents to build out the DeviceTree. If hardware doesn't conform to existing standards, which nearly every ARM SoC follows their own, someone will need to do further work port the kernel to the machine. All the special deviations from standards that Apple baked into their hardware either needs to be documented accurately, or Apple needs to put the work in to get mainline Linux running on their SoCs. This is a general problem in the ARM SoC and Linux space, and is not unique to Apple's SoCs. There are millions of ARM SoCs that are either stuck on old kernel forks because vendors never put the work in to get mainline Linux to support their SoCs, or they will never run Linux at all, ever. I don't even think all of the Raspberry Pi models have mainline support yet, and those that do only have it because of the work put in by the RPi Foundation, which has access to some vendor documentation, but I don't believe all. To get an idea of the scope of the problem concerning Linux support on ARM SoCs, check out this presentation[1]. [1] https://elinux.org/images/a/ad/Arm-soc-checklist.pdf https://elinux.org/images/a/ad/Arm-soc-checklist.pdf
tachyonbeam 6y ago
Apple could optimize their hardware and software without making the machine locked down. Those are somewhat orthogonal issues.

jb1991 6y ago

But renting implies you are continuing to pay money and will some day need to return it.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
No, not necessarily. Renting just implies you're not the owner and need to follow someone's rules, (that of the actual owner), in order to make use of the rented item. 'Purchasing' a Kindle book or video on Amazon is also renting for example and yet it does not mean you have to continue paying and yet you don't own the copy as Amazon's going to decide how you're allowed to consume it and if they're going to let you keep it[1][2]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism 2 - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-users-dont-actually-own-purchased-prime-video-content https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-user...
- jb1991 6y ago
  I don’t think purchasing a computer is the same thing as buying a movie from Amazon. The computer is always gonna be yours, and you can do whatever you want with it, even if Apple has made it very difficult to do so. But there are lots of objects in my house that would fall under that category as well, but I consider myself as their owner.
heavyset_go 6y ago
There's a direct parallel you can draw between software licensing and leasing.
- jb1991 6y ago
  But we’re not talking about software leases.