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"They seemed like ideal infant-caregivers: calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the ve

• rootusrootus 6y ago
  > calm, gentle, patient and sensitive. They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with. In fact, they were the very antithesis of the warriors and athletes IMO this really describes almost everyone, not just fathers. There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. Half of American men are fat whether they have a kid or not.
  • antisthenes 6y ago
    > There's a pretty big disconnect between our cultural ideal, and reality. As someone who isn't a native-born American, is that really your cultural ideal? Warriors and athletes? Because to an outsider that just seems...laughable at best, and for more reasons than just rampant obesity.
    • zarkov99 6y ago
      Why? What is your culture's cultural ideal?
      • watwut 6y ago
        For whatever is worth, I don't find warrior ideal either. I associate that with someone who is source of danger and threat. Warriors around means that you have to go home shortest route and watch whether the room is dangerous. Athletes have good bodies, but that is about it.
        • p2t2p 6y ago
          As one good book a read recently says: Be dangerous but not the danger. In think warrior ideal describes exactly that. You've got tools, skills and internal readiness to be the danger but you're not until it's necessary
        • zarkov99 6y ago
          Sure, but morality aside there is something to be admired in people that do dangerous, frightnening and difficult things for a living.
          • kortilla 6y ago
            “Difficult” does not belong with the other two and I’m not sure we need to admire people who have to risk their lives so much as pity them. It’s unfortunate we have so many roles in society that still require that.
            • engineer_22 6y ago
              I think life without risk or discomfort would be very boring indeed.
            • zarkov99 6y ago
              You would be surprised as to how many of these people would pity and politely dismiss most of richer and softer types of human that inhabit tech.
              • kortilla 6y ago
• gabereiser 6y ago
  I echo this. I’m an empty nester now but when I was raising kids (really early on) most of my friends were going to bars and didn’t understand the responsibility. Now they are all having kids and looking to me for answers... like there’s a manual for kids. I felt the most pride in my life watching my step-daughter get her diploma. I, a masculine man who was taught to bottle it all up and stuff upper lip, cried like a baby. Those who have kids know. Those who don’t just will never understand.
  • TooRightKite 6y ago
    That's nice, but why did your step daughter max the pride-meter instead of one of your own?
    • Kluny 6y ago
      You're making a pretty big leap of assumption here. - he didn't say that he had biological kids - the step daughter is his own daughter, they aren't two different things - he didn't say that if he does have biological kids, that he didn't tear up at their graduation - he also didn't specify the ages of any of his kids, so there's no reason to assume that any others have graduated I'm curious as to where those assumptions came from?
      • TooRightKite 6y ago
        True, on second reading he says "raising kids", not having them.
        • treeman79 6y ago
          Have adopted from foster kid system. Pretty quick they are YOUR kid. Emotionally, It fills the same.
      • lallysingh 6y ago
        Also, it's not like we're born with DNA testers. There's no reason why our instincts actually know the difference between our biological kids and others we've been with, played the same role with, and raised the same way.
• hazeii 6y ago
  At the other end, I became a father quite a bit after all of my friends; now I get what they couldn't get me to understand before.
• zarkov99 6y ago
  I feel exactly the same way, with respect to "going to battle". Things got much more real after kids, its you they look to when things go wrong and you better have it together.
• frenchyatwork 6y ago
  > Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle" for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to battle" for anything before having a family I'd bet the "for my family" part is critical to this statement though, and in the modern "Western" world, at least, such circumstances are exceedingly rare. I'm less inclined to go mountaineering or ice climbing, to give a more realistic example, partly because of the risk, and quality time at home (both with family and alone) is a pretty limited resource.
  • ksdale 6y ago
    It is, surprisingly, not as critical as I would have thought. There is something about being a dad that is sufficiently general, the idea that I'm responsible for another person's wellbeing entirely, that made me more confident that I could be trusted with greater responsibility. And I use the phrase "go to battle" almost as metaphorically as possible, in the sense of my willingness to be in conflict with people over right and wrong, but I think that's a good point about physical safety and quality time.
    • lotsofpulp 6y ago
      The actual way people go to battle is by ensuring maximum societal resources go towards their own kids. Moving to suburbs poorer people can’t afford, wealthier people keeping their kids from mingling with poorer kids, etc.
• swat535 6y ago
  Your testosterone levels are reduced as a man when you become a father [1], I wouldn't be surprised if that affects men's behaviour. Our evolution is complex, I find it fascinating that you can often dig up research with regards to this topic. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3182719/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3182719/
  • surge 6y ago
    I think he's overstating how much effect T has on this. I'm on HRT due to past medical issues that drastically reduced my T levels. I remember what it was like to have my T really low, Now that I'm on T, and probably about normal or higher than average for my age, I can't say its changed drastically my attitude towards my children, how gentle I am towards them and much less increased my willingness or proclivity to leave my family or my wife and seek another partner. If anything its made me more protective and I've had more a sense of duty towards my family, to protect them and be the first line of defense against whatever threats minor and major exist. The worst of it has been a shortness of temper but I keep it in check, its basically like being 20 again and being older and wiser, I can channel it into positive action. I wonder if he studied fathers who are physically active and do things like weight lifting or MMA, that naturally elevate T levels would agree that the line drawn between animals with higher T and humans are being overly correlated.
    • R0b0t1 6y ago
      I think it true that modern childrearing might have an affect on activity levels, but small changes in T level produce very outsized effects. If anything literature understates the role that hormones play in human cognition.
• lqet 6y ago
  > "go to battle" I remember that in the first days after my kid was born, the thought that I would defend that child to the bitter end against any attacker suddenly seemed completely natural, even trivial. It was quite strange and included a sudden extreme awareness of (and aggressive feelings against) animals which came to close. This included dogs. The feelings were overwhelmingly archaic. I talked to my wife about this, she experienced the same. I now understand the aggressiveness of animals who protect their offspring. I felt it myself. There seems to be some research regarding this: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1474704916662285 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/147470491666228...
  • cortesoft 6y ago
    I can totally relate to this. I have always been a completely non-violent person, but I remember the feeling of “I would kill to defend this tiny creature” when I became a dad. It was pretty powerful.
    • kortilla 6y ago
      This is also when you realize the insidious power of the “think of the children” argument. When someone manipulates you to think of your own children, they trigger that base instinct that’s hard to fight.
      • colechristensen 6y ago
        Many of the problems in the world boil down to intentional and unintentional manipulation of basic instincts/ traits/ weaknesses of humans. The biggest way to fight this is simply making people aware of them.
      • Agentlien 6y ago
        This sentiment used to annoy me as it seemed like a non-sequitur. Now that I'm a father I'm much more wary of it because I know just what it means.
    • lukaszkups 6y ago
• rayiner 6y ago
  It’s kind of a weird ret-conning of “of the masculine ideal.” When NASA picked astronauts to be the public face of the technological race against communism, they picked men with families: https://nasa.fandom.com/wiki/Mercury_Seven https://nasa.fandom.com/wiki/Mercury_Seven > From the 18, the first seven NASA astronauts were chosen,[8] each a "superb physical specimen" with an IQ above 130, and the ability to function well both as part of a team and solo.[6] Grissom, Cooper, and Slayton were Air Force pilots; Shepard, Carpenter, and Schirra were Navy pilots, and Glenn was a Marine Corps pilot. > Because they wore civilian clothes, the audience did not see them as military test pilots but "mature, middle-class Americans, average in height and visage, family men all," ready for single combat versus worldwide Communism. To the astronauts' surprise, the reporters asked about their personal lives instead of war records or flight experience, or about the details of Mercury. After Glenn responded by speaking eloquently "on God, country, and family" the others followed his example, and the reporters "lustily applauded them."
  • ksdale 6y ago
    This is great. In my comment, I almost mentioned that because of how much earlier people historically had children (than most Americans and Europeans do now), most of the people we think of as "masculine ideals" throughout history would have been (were) fathers. The number of times I read about a famous historical figure on Wikipedia, and they mention almost as an afterthought that they had 6 kids... But I didn't want to go off on a big tangent about the "masculine ideal" although I agree completely that there is ret-conning and we could definitely use a rethink of how we expect men to act!
    • rayiner 6y ago
      I’m not sure who “Maximus” is—if the author is talking about the movie Gladiator, the whole premise of that story is that Maximus is a loving family man who kills the illegitimate Emperor who had his wife and son killed. Achilles had a son who fought in the war against Troy. Hector, who Achilles fought and killed, also had a family, and that’s a key part of his portrayal by Homer. He’s the loyal soldier who fights to protect Troy without any impure motive of seeking glory or power. The whole Odyssey is about Odysseus returning home to his wife and son.
• g42gregory 6y ago
  I echo the sentiment as well. I think these are precisely the men you would go to the battle with. The battle to defend the family and the Country. The men who know what they are fighting for.
• Hoasi 6y ago
  > Also, somewhat ironic, but my willingness to "go to battle" for my family is far greater than my willingness to "go to battle" for anything before having a family, to an extent that becoming a father has made me far more assertive, confident, and willing to take responsibility, which makes me more "masculine" if you so happen to define masculinity that way... That's a known fact in the military since times immemorial.
• smogcutter 6y ago
  > They didn’t seem like men you would go to battle with... Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan – often associated with a masculine ideal. Funny how often the “masculine ideal” gets ret-conned in ways that say more about the person making the argument than anything else. Achilles is hardly insensitive——the turning point of the Iliad is his mourning over the body of Patroclus.
• nine_k 6y ago
  Also, having become a dad, one changes the attitude to the "battle". Instead of being a brash, brave, showy warrior who just doesnt' care about the danger and only cares about valor, you become a diligent, careful, never-surrendering and deadly efficient warrior, because you care a bit less about valor, but badly need to win. You have some specific lives to protect.
  • mekane8 6y ago
    I love the way you phrased this and I experienced exactly the transformation you described!
• Balgair 6y ago
  > think Maximus, Achilles or Michael Jordan Maximus is a bit of a strange choice there. Marcus Aurelius of Meditations fame, is the titular grandfather figure in the film (right at the start). Meditations has a lot in it about child rearing and Marcus was something of a devoted father to his many children (for Roman men in those days). All that said, his son, Commodus, the first emperor to have the title passed down to him from his own father, was a uniquely terrible person. As seen in the film, he was just a 'very bad guy', but in reality he was much worse than is portrayed. In essence, no matter the effort you put into your kid, they are still themselves
  • andrewem 6y ago
    This from the Wikipedia article on Commodus does indeed seem very bad: "Citizens of Rome missing their feet through accident or illness were taken to the arena, where they were tethered together for Commodus to club to death while pretending they were giants."
  • vijayr02 6y ago
    > Commodus, the first emperor to have the title passed down to him from his own father I don't think that's right? Titus[0] succeeded Vespasian in 79 AD, father to son. Both were good rulers BTW, but Titus was succeeded by Domitian (younger brother) who was a disaster and assassinated for it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus
    • Balgair 6y ago
      Argh! You are correct. I meant to use the old saying of 'born in the purple', in that Commodus was the first emperor born and raised to be one. But I tried to use a simpler way of speaking and was, of course, wrong about it. Thank you.
• jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  and then...otoh...there was Sparta.
• lunatuna 6y ago
  Something similar, but a bit different has happened a few times to me where I've had to show a lot more restraint than I would have previous. With my daughter or without, I now have a responsibility to stay out of trouble. I can't just run in mouth and fist first into any situation. I've described it as emasculating in the past, but this thread has changed my mind to think about it as more being in control and ready - a man with a purpose. Thanks all for discussing.