5 ms·

I feel kind of grossed out, as a developer (and tinkerer) by how locked down Mac products are. It's not really your computer, you're just renting. Apple has dec

I feel kind of grossed out, as a developer (and tinkerer) by how locked down Mac products are. It's not really your computer, you're just renting. Apple has decided that they know what you want and need better than you.

jb1991 6y ago
Just because it is locked down, why is that the same as "renting"? Those are two very different concepts.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  Because you are not the ultimate decider of what to do with the machine. If you owned it, you could do anything outside of harm.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    The whole concept of the machine is to be bought and optimized for running macOS.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      Right, the point is that it didn't use to be that way exclusively and now it is, so the new machines are more restrictive than previous Macs, which also ran macOS. In fact macOS itself is more restrictive nowdays than it used to be.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      I guess, but the "whole concept of the machine" that I'm typing this on was to run Windows... 7 (I think?); that's a completely artificial limitation, as shown by running Ubuntu on it years after the hardware went out of support.
      - sixstringtheory 6y ago
        I'm not sure what the problem is, then. You have a device that does what you (or the GP) want, which is to install any operating system, tinker, etc. Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it? I know you're joking, but I actually kind of am... Apple has a tremendous amount of industry influence, just see removal of the headphone jack.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
        macOS deprecates support for Macs that are 5-7 years old with every release. I put Linux on them when new macOS releases no longer support them, and they're perfectly good machines afterwards. When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Apple has said they won't support running other operating systems on these ARM Macs unless they're virtualized.
        coldtea 6y ago
        >When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
    - tachyonbeam 6y ago
      Apple could optimize their hardware and software without making the machine locked down. Those are somewhat orthogonal issues.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    But renting implies you are continuing to pay money and will some day need to return it.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      No, not necessarily. Renting just implies you're not the owner and need to follow someone's rules, (that of the actual owner), in order to make use of the rented item. 'Purchasing' a Kindle book or video on Amazon is also renting for example and yet it does not mean you have to continue paying and yet you don't own the copy as Amazon's going to decide how you're allowed to consume it and if they're going to let you keep it[1][2]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism 2 - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-users-dont-actually-own-purchased-prime-video-content https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-user...
      - jb1991 6y ago
        I don’t think purchasing a computer is the same thing as buying a movie from Amazon. The computer is always gonna be yours, and you can do whatever you want with it, even if Apple has made it very difficult to do so. But there are lots of objects in my house that would fall under that category as well, but I consider myself as their owner.
    - heavyset_go 6y ago
      There's a direct parallel you can draw between software licensing and leasing.
      - jb1991 6y ago
        But we’re not talking about software leases.
bscphil 6y ago
It's really kind of tragic that so much incredible research and engineering work goes into creating new hardware like this only for it to be locked into one particular company with very tight constraints on target audience, income bracket, and technical limitations. Think how incredible it would be if everyone could use this new silicon.
- jmagoon 6y ago
  It is, in fact, already used by everyone, because it's an evolution of the chipset in basically every smartphone in the world with widely divergent target audiences, income brackets, and technical limitations.
  - bscphil 6y ago
    I don't know that that's a fair comparison. Just because it's an ARMv8 chip doesn't mean it's directly comparable to what's in smartphones. (I assume you aren't comparing it to Apple made chips for iPhone specifically, since then it wouldn't be true that it's in "basically every smartphone in the world".) In particular, this is the first 5nm chip to be widely available, and by most accounts on performance it competes with top of the line hardware at a small fraction of the power use. Most existing ARM chips are designed for the very-low-power market, e.g. in phones, not to be used in a high performance laptop. If there's a Dell or Thinkpad laptop with an ARM chip that's comparable, by all means, let me know.
    - tachyonbeam 6y ago
      AFAIK you are correct. Apple has completely redesigned their own ARM chip. It has the same instruction set (or a superset of the instruction set) as what runs in a cellphone, but the design is completely different from say, Qualcomm chips.
coldtea 6y ago
>I feel kind of grossed out, as a developer (and tinkerer) by how locked down Mac products are That's part of the value proposition (leave it or take it).
jmagoon 6y ago
I prefer for the class of device the Air fits into (travel, work laptop) to have a nicely curated nix machine with working drivers out of the box. Apple has continued to improve on this by making this product class faster, more battery efficient, and* cheaper. There is a massive marketplace for tinkering on computers, from Arduinos to multi-GPU ML rigs. Trying to optimize for both classes of things seems like a foolish endeavor, especially when Linux users represent such a small fraction of the desktop market.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  I hear this all the time from people "drivers working out of the box", but I've been running Linux machines for a decade now, and I've run into very few issues comparatively speaking. My work makes me use a MacBook for work, and it has a lot of significant bugs that are not getting fixed. The trick with Linux is to use a popular distribution. The one thing I will fully concede is that Linux laptops have poor battery life.

jb1991 6y ago

Just because it is locked down, why is that the same as "renting"? Those are two very different concepts.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
Because you are not the ultimate decider of what to do with the machine. If you owned it, you could do anything outside of harm.
- coldtea 6y ago
  The whole concept of the machine is to be bought and optimized for running macOS.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    Right, the point is that it didn't use to be that way exclusively and now it is, so the new machines are more restrictive than previous Macs, which also ran macOS. In fact macOS itself is more restrictive nowdays than it used to be.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    I guess, but the "whole concept of the machine" that I'm typing this on was to run Windows... 7 (I think?); that's a completely artificial limitation, as shown by running Ubuntu on it years after the hardware went out of support.
    - sixstringtheory 6y ago
      I'm not sure what the problem is, then. You have a device that does what you (or the GP) want, which is to install any operating system, tinker, etc. Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it?
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > Is the worry that Apple and its practices will dominate the industry to the point that you literally will not be able to turn on your current machine and use it? I know you're joking, but I actually kind of am... Apple has a tremendous amount of industry influence, just see removal of the headphone jack.
      - heavyset_go 6y ago
        macOS deprecates support for Macs that are 5-7 years old with every release. I put Linux on them when new macOS releases no longer support them, and they're perfectly good machines afterwards. When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Apple has said they won't support running other operating systems on these ARM Macs unless they're virtualized.
        coldtea 6y ago
        >When macOS deprecates support for these ARM Macs in 5-7 years, Linux isn't an option for them unless Apple puts in a lot of work to support a mainline Linux kernel on their hardware. Why would Apple need to "put a lot of work in"? Apple doesn't support Linux on 86 either. Third parties did the Mac Linux ports for 86, and will do them for the ARM Macs. The only thing Apple needs to do is to not lock the ARM Macs from booting another OS, which is very easy to do -- Apple doesn't need to invest lots of work to run Linux on ARM Macs, just needs not to prevent it.
        heavyset_go 6y ago
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    Apple could optimize their hardware and software without making the machine locked down. Those are somewhat orthogonal issues.
- jb1991 6y ago
  But renting implies you are continuing to pay money and will some day need to return it.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    No, not necessarily. Renting just implies you're not the owner and need to follow someone's rules, (that of the actual owner), in order to make use of the rented item. 'Purchasing' a Kindle book or video on Amazon is also renting for example and yet it does not mean you have to continue paying and yet you don't own the copy as Amazon's going to decide how you're allowed to consume it and if they're going to let you keep it[1][2]. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Criticism 2 - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-users-dont-actually-own-purchased-prime-video-content https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/amazon-argues-user...
    - jb1991 6y ago
      I don’t think purchasing a computer is the same thing as buying a movie from Amazon. The computer is always gonna be yours, and you can do whatever you want with it, even if Apple has made it very difficult to do so. But there are lots of objects in my house that would fall under that category as well, but I consider myself as their owner.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    There's a direct parallel you can draw between software licensing and leasing.
    - jb1991 6y ago
      But we’re not talking about software leases.

bscphil 6y ago

It's really kind of tragic that so much incredible research and engineering work goes into creating new hardware like this only for it to be locked into one particular company with very tight constraints on target audience, income bracket, and technical limitations. Think how incredible it would be if everyone could use this new silicon.

jmagoon 6y ago
It is, in fact, already used by everyone, because it's an evolution of the chipset in basically every smartphone in the world with widely divergent target audiences, income brackets, and technical limitations.
- bscphil 6y ago
  I don't know that that's a fair comparison. Just because it's an ARMv8 chip doesn't mean it's directly comparable to what's in smartphones. (I assume you aren't comparing it to Apple made chips for iPhone specifically, since then it wouldn't be true that it's in "basically every smartphone in the world".) In particular, this is the first 5nm chip to be widely available, and by most accounts on performance it competes with top of the line hardware at a small fraction of the power use. Most existing ARM chips are designed for the very-low-power market, e.g. in phones, not to be used in a high performance laptop. If there's a Dell or Thinkpad laptop with an ARM chip that's comparable, by all means, let me know.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    AFAIK you are correct. Apple has completely redesigned their own ARM chip. It has the same instruction set (or a superset of the instruction set) as what runs in a cellphone, but the design is completely different from say, Qualcomm chips.

coldtea 6y ago

>I feel kind of grossed out, as a developer (and tinkerer) by how locked down Mac products are That's part of the value proposition (leave it or take it).

jmagoon 6y ago

I prefer for the class of device the Air fits into (travel, work laptop) to have a nicely curated nix machine with working drivers out of the box. Apple has continued to improve on this by making this product class faster, more battery efficient, and* cheaper. There is a massive marketplace for tinkering on computers, from Arduinos to multi-GPU ML rigs. Trying to optimize for both classes of things seems like a foolish endeavor, especially when Linux users represent such a small fraction of the desktop market.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
I hear this all the time from people "drivers working out of the box", but I've been running Linux machines for a decade now, and I've run into very few issues comparatively speaking. My work makes me use a MacBook for work, and it has a lot of significant bugs that are not getting fixed. The trick with Linux is to use a popular distribution. The one thing I will fully concede is that Linux laptops have poor battery life.