7 ms·

I'm not buying into Apple's eventually-closed desktop computer systems - I don't care what the performance is. They've been slowly marching towards iOS's closed

I'm not buying into Apple's eventually-closed desktop computer systems - I don't care what the performance is. They've been slowly marching towards iOS's closed ecosystem model on the Mac and with an in-house CPU, they can effectively lock users out of alternate OS choices on their hardware. Buyer beware.

Findeton 6y ago
Exactly, I don't care whatever they do, I'm not buying into their closed garden of eden. I've already replaced Spotify with Funkwhale, and I'm using Linux, I'm not their target and I'll never be.
- singemonkey 6y ago
  Appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to let us know that.
  - millzlane 6y ago
    Thank you, for letting us know you appreciate his opinion.
matvore 6y ago
I get why this idea of becoming iOS-like is uncomfortable for a lot of people, but will they take away the POSIX-ness of the OS? What about all the people that spend all their time in Vim, TMUX, Emacs, and/or zsh? I think these people will continue to be pretty happy on macOS if they already are. In my experience, installing alternate OS's on Mac hardware has never been frictionless or satisfying anyway.
- aero-glide 6y ago
  >In my experience, installing alternate OS's on Mac hardware has never been frictionless or satisfying anyway. It would be if they take some effort to support it.
  - matvore 6y ago
    > It would be if they take some effort to support it. Oh, definitely. But the Linux (or alternate OS) fans are not really on Apple's radar. OTOH, they do a good job of keeping some core binaries up-to-date, like zsh and Vim, and they did appeal about getting good compile times during the M1 release event, so they consider POSIX users part of their target market.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      There's no link between - compile time and "POSIX users". Last I checked, I can compile and deploy an iOS app without the need for anything POSIX.
  - GiorgioG 6y ago
    Bootcamp has always run fine for me. I've never tried to install Linux on my Macs.
- nsxwolf 6y ago
  I don't see why they would do this. If they just want to sell iPads, they could do that tomorrow. Just release XCode for Linux and Windows so that devs can create iOS apps and call it a day. Obviously they still intend for the Mac to remain a general purpose computer or they wouldn't be putting this much effort into it.
  - FreakyT 6y ago
    Exactly. They still need something to develop iOS and MacOS themselves on, so unless they want to move all their internal lower-level development over to Windows or Linux (which, IMO, doesn't seem like something Apple would do), they'll need to continue producing something resembling a general purpose computer.
    - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
      Why do you think Xcode won’t ever make it to iOS?
  - michaelt 6y ago
    When GiorgioG speaks of a closed, iOS-style ecosystem, I don't think they mean literally running iOS on laptops. Rather, they foresee OS X becoming a system where you can't run programs that haven't received Apple's blessing and been brought through Apple's store. Blessings that will be denied to software like youtube-dl. As to why they would do this? A combination of the good of most users, who will enjoy protection from malware and viruses; and the irresistible temptation of a 30% cut of all sales.
    - least 6y ago
      People have been fear mongering this for a long time now without anything to show for it. People see the writing on the wall but honestly I don't really buy it. They added System Integrity Protection (SIP) in El Capitan in the name of security which clamped down heavily on what people could do with their system, limiting hacks that allowed for modification of system applications, etc. Outwardly you can claim that this is a sign of them making it so people don't have control over their system. The reality is that it can be turned off by anyone that cares enough to do so. They added checks to inhibit installation of unverified executables from the web. If you don't have a signature from Apple, you can't run it. That surely means they're taking control, right? Well, except that it doesn't actually stop you from installing the software. They keep adding checks to inhibit users from endangering their system (such as much more granular permissions in Mojave/Catalina), but they have not made it impossible to execute any arbitrary code you want on their system if you want to.
- karteum 6y ago
  > will they take away the POSIX-ness of the OS? It's not only about POSIX. After the X years of planned lifetime (with proper software/OS updates), will there be any solution to extend the lifetime (which is what I used Linux for, on > 10 years-old laptops) ? I guess there will be no solution against planned obsolescence... And with regards to control and privacy : will Apple finally give-up their policy of deciding (and tracking) "for your own good" which apps you are allowed to install and launch ?
rvense 6y ago
I feel exactly the same way, but I do wonder how this gap is going to close. If Microsoft team up with another ARM vendor and make similarly closed-off, proprietary glue sandwiches as a response, where does that leave Linux? I doubt PC-compatible, x86 laptops are going to disappear off the face of the Earth anytime soon, but... if there's basically two types of machines, and ours have worse performance and half the battery life at twice the thickness (plus a fan, as a free bonus), a Linux machine is a tough sell to someone who hasn't already bought in. For the Linux workstation experience to keep up, we need more people coming in, and if new people can't dip their toes on hardware they already own, that raises the bar significantly.
- rowanG077 6y ago
  I'm guessing we are moving towards the same system as embedded vendors use. Patch the Linux kernel so it runs. But never upstream anything so you will run around with an old os never to be updates again.
- massysett 6y ago
  Look at that new Raspberry Pi where everything is built into the keyboard unit like the old Apple 2 and Commodore 64. Linux’s future is brighter than ever. Linux hardware that is unique in its own right is much more interesting than trying to install Linux on PC or Mac hardware and beat it into submission.
- igneo676 6y ago
  You just have to look at the phone community (XDA Developers, etc) to see how this will (eventually) go. A good example were the old Asus Transformer tablets. They were a super niche device, but it still lended itself to Linux and so a small team of people managed to load Ubuntu on it. Another are Samsung phones. They try to lock people out, but they have popular enough devices that people find a way to put LineageOS on them. Finally, even iPhones aren't immune. Small teams of people have managed to load Android on them and get it (partially) working. More people would give them even greater functionality. If laptop manufacturers lock things down with ARM, there will be people who work around those mitigations and install their own OS on that hardware. Tooling will be developed to make that process easier and easier for the next round of people with that device (or future devices). It'll suck up front until the community grows large enough to work around issues faster and faster. And that's even supposing worst case scenario. I'm not fully buying the idea that you _won't_ be able to change the OS on these laptops. Microsoft has tried (and failed) to lock other OS's out of their laptops. Chromebooks are (currently) the largest market of ARM laptops and you're able to change the OS on them. Apple might be the only company even remotely able to hinder freedom on their devices. Either way. In the war on general computing, I'm generally optimistic for the users.
faitswulff 6y ago
As someone who sympathizes with your perspective, I do believe that this is a minority position. Most people don't care about closed ecosystems - just look at Facebook's popularity. Look at the Apple App Store. Government intervention would be needed to break up these closed gardens.
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  > I do believe that this is a minority position. Most people don't care about closed ecosystems You're absolutely right. I bought my first MacBook Pro (17") in 2007 (and it's still running at my parents' house!) Over time all the machines in the house save my work/gaming rig have been replaced by Macs (iMacs, MBP, 12" MB, etc.) Now I plan on reversing course. I'll keep my iPhone for now because everyone in the family lives in the blue bubbles (iMessage.)
  - electriclove 6y ago
    Re: Reversing course.. what will you replace your Macs with?
    - GiorgioG 6y ago
      The iMac will be replaced with a custom-built PC. The MacBook Pros are another story. I don't know. I can't see me buying any new Intel Macs since they'll be phased out at some point. I've never had much luck with the Dell XPSes. I may give ThinkPads a look (I have a P50 at my current job which has been fine (if not for all the corporate antimalware slowing it to a crawl.))
      - electriclove 6y ago
        Thanks for the response. I'm hesitant to move my family away from Macs because they have been relatively easy to support.
        GiorgioG 6y ago
breakfastduck 6y ago
Going on internet comments they've been marching towards this for years. I've yet to see anything actually happen.
- matvore 6y ago
  Eminent Internet speculation about Apple is correct surprisingly often. EDIT: I'm getting downvoted, maybe because I was too cryptic. To clarify, it seems like the rumors that gain traction with mainstream sites and Apple-focused YouTube channels and forums tend to have strong correlation with something that will happen later.
  - breakfastduck 6y ago
    This speculation has been going on for years. They're not going to remove the ability to run arbitrary code or the unix core. There would literally be no reason to buy a mac over another product of theirs.
    - matvore 6y ago
      I suspect there is an element of truth to it. I agree they will keep the Unix core and allow you to use clang and ld however you want. I suspect, however, they're not interested in supporting alternate OS's nor are they interested in allowing typical users to download normie GUI apps from anywhere.
      - breakfastduck 6y ago
        Oh absolutely, it's just not as extreme as people make out. Yes, they won't support dual booting linux - you can run a VM, but if that's a dealbreaker - fair enough. There's absolutely no chance however that savvy users will not be able to continue running non app store apps. Apple want control, but they're not stupid enough to completely lock down the development machines for their entire ecosystem.
        6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
konart 6y ago
>they can effectively lock users out of alternate OS choices on their hardware People buy mac to use macOS. Some will also use bootcamp for windows if VM is not enough for their tasks. And installing linux instead of macOS on a mac even sounds strange. So - nothing to be aware of. Macs always were build to run Apple OS
sschueller 6y ago
I'm with you. I'm not going to support this crap. We might be in the minority at the moment but the harder Apple makes it to repair their machines by 3rd parties the less likely people are going to buy such an expensive machine in the future where a broken key means $500+ in repairs.

Findeton 6y ago

Exactly, I don't care whatever they do, I'm not buying into their closed garden of eden. I've already replaced Spotify with Funkwhale, and I'm using Linux, I'm not their target and I'll never be.

singemonkey 6y ago
Appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to let us know that.
- millzlane 6y ago
  Thank you, for letting us know you appreciate his opinion.

matvore 6y ago

I get why this idea of becoming iOS-like is uncomfortable for a lot of people, but will they take away the POSIX-ness of the OS? What about all the people that spend all their time in Vim, TMUX, Emacs, and/or zsh? I think these people will continue to be pretty happy on macOS if they already are. In my experience, installing alternate OS's on Mac hardware has never been frictionless or satisfying anyway.

aero-glide 6y ago
>In my experience, installing alternate OS's on Mac hardware has never been frictionless or satisfying anyway. It would be if they take some effort to support it.
- matvore 6y ago
  > It would be if they take some effort to support it. Oh, definitely. But the Linux (or alternate OS) fans are not really on Apple's radar. OTOH, they do a good job of keeping some core binaries up-to-date, like zsh and Vim, and they did appeal about getting good compile times during the M1 release event, so they consider POSIX users part of their target market.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    There's no link between - compile time and "POSIX users". Last I checked, I can compile and deploy an iOS app without the need for anything POSIX.
- GiorgioG 6y ago
  Bootcamp has always run fine for me. I've never tried to install Linux on my Macs.
nsxwolf 6y ago
I don't see why they would do this. If they just want to sell iPads, they could do that tomorrow. Just release XCode for Linux and Windows so that devs can create iOS apps and call it a day. Obviously they still intend for the Mac to remain a general purpose computer or they wouldn't be putting this much effort into it.
- FreakyT 6y ago
  Exactly. They still need something to develop iOS and MacOS themselves on, so unless they want to move all their internal lower-level development over to Windows or Linux (which, IMO, doesn't seem like something Apple would do), they'll need to continue producing something resembling a general purpose computer.
  - whywhywhywhy 6y ago
    Why do you think Xcode won’t ever make it to iOS?
- michaelt 6y ago
  When GiorgioG speaks of a closed, iOS-style ecosystem, I don't think they mean literally running iOS on laptops. Rather, they foresee OS X becoming a system where you can't run programs that haven't received Apple's blessing and been brought through Apple's store. Blessings that will be denied to software like youtube-dl. As to why they would do this? A combination of the good of most users, who will enjoy protection from malware and viruses; and the irresistible temptation of a 30% cut of all sales.
  - least 6y ago
    People have been fear mongering this for a long time now without anything to show for it. People see the writing on the wall but honestly I don't really buy it. They added System Integrity Protection (SIP) in El Capitan in the name of security which clamped down heavily on what people could do with their system, limiting hacks that allowed for modification of system applications, etc. Outwardly you can claim that this is a sign of them making it so people don't have control over their system. The reality is that it can be turned off by anyone that cares enough to do so. They added checks to inhibit installation of unverified executables from the web. If you don't have a signature from Apple, you can't run it. That surely means they're taking control, right? Well, except that it doesn't actually stop you from installing the software. They keep adding checks to inhibit users from endangering their system (such as much more granular permissions in Mojave/Catalina), but they have not made it impossible to execute any arbitrary code you want on their system if you want to.
karteum 6y ago
> will they take away the POSIX-ness of the OS? It's not only about POSIX. After the X years of planned lifetime (with proper software/OS updates), will there be any solution to extend the lifetime (which is what I used Linux for, on > 10 years-old laptops) ? I guess there will be no solution against planned obsolescence... And with regards to control and privacy : will Apple finally give-up their policy of deciding (and tracking) "for your own good" which apps you are allowed to install and launch ?

rvense 6y ago

I feel exactly the same way, but I do wonder how this gap is going to close. If Microsoft team up with another ARM vendor and make similarly closed-off, proprietary glue sandwiches as a response, where does that leave Linux? I doubt PC-compatible, x86 laptops are going to disappear off the face of the Earth anytime soon, but... if there's basically two types of machines, and ours have worse performance and half the battery life at twice the thickness (plus a fan, as a free bonus), a Linux machine is a tough sell to someone who hasn't already bought in. For the Linux workstation experience to keep up, we need more people coming in, and if new people can't dip their toes on hardware they already own, that raises the bar significantly.

rowanG077 6y ago
I'm guessing we are moving towards the same system as embedded vendors use. Patch the Linux kernel so it runs. But never upstream anything so you will run around with an old os never to be updates again.
massysett 6y ago
Look at that new Raspberry Pi where everything is built into the keyboard unit like the old Apple 2 and Commodore 64. Linux’s future is brighter than ever. Linux hardware that is unique in its own right is much more interesting than trying to install Linux on PC or Mac hardware and beat it into submission.
igneo676 6y ago
You just have to look at the phone community (XDA Developers, etc) to see how this will (eventually) go. A good example were the old Asus Transformer tablets. They were a super niche device, but it still lended itself to Linux and so a small team of people managed to load Ubuntu on it. Another are Samsung phones. They try to lock people out, but they have popular enough devices that people find a way to put LineageOS on them. Finally, even iPhones aren't immune. Small teams of people have managed to load Android on them and get it (partially) working. More people would give them even greater functionality. If laptop manufacturers lock things down with ARM, there will be people who work around those mitigations and install their own OS on that hardware. Tooling will be developed to make that process easier and easier for the next round of people with that device (or future devices). It'll suck up front until the community grows large enough to work around issues faster and faster. And that's even supposing worst case scenario. I'm not fully buying the idea that you _won't_ be able to change the OS on these laptops. Microsoft has tried (and failed) to lock other OS's out of their laptops. Chromebooks are (currently) the largest market of ARM laptops and you're able to change the OS on them. Apple might be the only company even remotely able to hinder freedom on their devices. Either way. In the war on general computing, I'm generally optimistic for the users.

faitswulff 6y ago

As someone who sympathizes with your perspective, I do believe that this is a minority position. Most people don't care about closed ecosystems - just look at Facebook's popularity. Look at the Apple App Store. Government intervention would be needed to break up these closed gardens.

GiorgioG 6y ago
> I do believe that this is a minority position. Most people don't care about closed ecosystems You're absolutely right. I bought my first MacBook Pro (17") in 2007 (and it's still running at my parents' house!) Over time all the machines in the house save my work/gaming rig have been replaced by Macs (iMacs, MBP, 12" MB, etc.) Now I plan on reversing course. I'll keep my iPhone for now because everyone in the family lives in the blue bubbles (iMessage.)
- electriclove 6y ago
  Re: Reversing course.. what will you replace your Macs with?
  - GiorgioG 6y ago
    The iMac will be replaced with a custom-built PC. The MacBook Pros are another story. I don't know. I can't see me buying any new Intel Macs since they'll be phased out at some point. I've never had much luck with the Dell XPSes. I may give ThinkPads a look (I have a P50 at my current job which has been fine (if not for all the corporate antimalware slowing it to a crawl.))
    - electriclove 6y ago
      Thanks for the response. I'm hesitant to move my family away from Macs because they have been relatively easy to support.
      - GiorgioG 6y ago

breakfastduck 6y ago

Going on internet comments they've been marching towards this for years. I've yet to see anything actually happen.

matvore 6y ago
Eminent Internet speculation about Apple is correct surprisingly often. EDIT: I'm getting downvoted, maybe because I was too cryptic. To clarify, it seems like the rumors that gain traction with mainstream sites and Apple-focused YouTube channels and forums tend to have strong correlation with something that will happen later.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  This speculation has been going on for years. They're not going to remove the ability to run arbitrary code or the unix core. There would literally be no reason to buy a mac over another product of theirs.
  - matvore 6y ago
    I suspect there is an element of truth to it. I agree they will keep the Unix core and allow you to use clang and ld however you want. I suspect, however, they're not interested in supporting alternate OS's nor are they interested in allowing typical users to download normie GUI apps from anywhere.
    - breakfastduck 6y ago
      Oh absolutely, it's just not as extreme as people make out. Yes, they won't support dual booting linux - you can run a VM, but if that's a dealbreaker - fair enough. There's absolutely no chance however that savvy users will not be able to continue running non app store apps. Apple want control, but they're not stupid enough to completely lock down the development machines for their entire ecosystem.
      - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

konart 6y ago

>they can effectively lock users out of alternate OS choices on their hardware People buy mac to use macOS. Some will also use bootcamp for windows if VM is not enough for their tasks. And installing linux instead of macOS on a mac even sounds strange. So - nothing to be aware of. Macs always were build to run Apple OS

sschueller 6y ago

I'm with you. I'm not going to support this crap. We might be in the minority at the moment but the harder Apple makes it to repair their machines by 3rd parties the less likely people are going to buy such an expensive machine in the future where a broken key means $500+ in repairs.