10 ms·

Dave2D found the air to be on par with the Pro, at least for tasks that took under ~8.5 minutes. It only really throttled after that point, according to him.

by d3nj4l 6y ago

ghaff 6y ago
That's one data point that's particularly interesting to me. As someone who (normally) travels a great deal, I'd probably go with the Air unless there were real throttling compromises, especially given that I use a different computer for multimedia editing at home.
- murukesh_s 6y ago
  Wish they re-introduce the discontinued Macbook 12 inch with the same specs as air. It weighed only 970grams vs 1.29 kg for air. In fact air feels bulky compared to other light weight laptops like LG Gram, not to mention the design is outdated. Always wondered why Apple killed the smaller model. Perhaps they want to push the iPad pro so killed off the netbook line. The wannabe traveller inside me keep drooling at 12 inch whenever i see it in someones hands. It feels so light and compact. With new M1 silicon, it's the ideal time to bring it back. I would grab it without any thought.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    I'm definitely part of the target market (well, depending upon my mood) for a <13" laptop for travel. I've never been able to make an iPad-based workflow work for me. If nothing else I spend too much time with my laptop on my, well, lap and nothing with a removable keyboard works for me. Based on the data I've seen so far, I'm not sure why they even did a with fan Pro variant. Even if the market for an 11-12" model is smaller I'm not sure why they didn't do that instead. I was sure that was going to be the reason they didn't refresh their 12" Intel system.
    - djrogers 6y ago
      > Based on the data I've seen so far, I'm not sure why they even did a with fan Pro variant. The ‘pro’ variant released was the low-end 13, aka the 2 port, formerly the ‘macbook escape’. The 13” line has been bifurcated since 2016, with this one firmly lower-spec’d and powered. It’s very likely that the ‘4 port’, or high-end 13” pro will make more use of the active cooling, so it was likely worth it to develop the new laptop with it.
  - tinodotim 6y ago
    That would be a great device to also include a touchscreen in a mac for the first time... after all macOS is getting more and more touch-capable UI and got iOS app support. :) But like you said, likely would eat into the iPad market - on the other side, as long as they don't make it a 2-in-1, the iPad should still have more than enough reason to exist.
  - Tagbert 6y ago
    The 12” MacBook could not be updated to newer Intel chipsets due to thermal issues. The single port was also a limitation. Once Apple upgraded the Air to retina, a large part of the market for the 12” was lost. They were too close to each other and cross-competed except for the super portable use cases which was not large enough. This model of Air is obviously a transition product with new guts in an old shell. I suspect that as Apple introduce fully redesigned, second generation Apple Silicon products, you might see something that is closer to the 12” MacBook.
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      I'm also hoping for thinner bezels as the current models' ones are just huge compared to Dell's XPS line for example. It's slowly becoming obvious that the design has barely changed since 2016 or so. The 16" model was a step in the right direction, but it's still not even close to what Dell is delivering. It'd be amazing if they managed to squeeze a 13" screen into the old 12" form factor - you'd still get great battery life thanks to the M1.
      - snowwrestler 6y ago
        It seems like Apple is capable of it—look at the bezels on a new iPhone or iPad. But it would certainly require a whole new shell, which probably takes a while for Apple to design and ramp up because of all the machining involved.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    They should probably release an 11" version of the air, I'm not sure a 12" having the same specs as the Air would be viable. However the interesting part would be what are they gonna do with their iPad Pro line at this point I don't see a reason for it not to run Big Sur or the Bigger Sur they'll release next year and compete directly with the surface. What I see Apple doing is the following: iPhone/iPad non-pro continuing to use A series SoCs and run iOS iPad Pro migrate to M series SoCs and become what is essentially Apple's Surface Pro Macbook Air 13" and 11" (possibly drop to a single 12" model) with M series SoCs this essentially will be the Surface Laptop/Book competitor Macbook Pro's will continue as they are 13" and 16" models, if Apple goes for 11" and 13" MBAs they might move the MBP to 14" and 16". Without discrete GPUs and essentially no way to "upgrade" the CPU to a higher model I don't really see the MBP 13" being viable in the long term tbh, I think they'll need a model that will differentiate it much more from the MBA and unless Apple starts binning their future M series SoCs much more in line with Intel and AMD I don't see them having too much of a range here for upgrades. So alternatively I also see them dropping the 13" MBP altogether and having only a 15" or 16" on whilst the Air will occupy the smaller form factors.
    - ghaff 6y ago
      Convergence can be overrated. Arguably Apple finally made tablets mainstream because they didn't feel the same need to maintain compatibility with their desktop/laptop line that others did. But it's hard not to see some sort of convergence between mobile, laptops, and desktops over time.
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        They are doing convergence now with allowing iOS apps on Macs I can definitely see the iPad Pro line being moved closer to MacOS from a UI perspective, especially since the pen now works on all iPads.
  - sooheon 6y ago
    The 12 inch is still my favorite MacBook experience, having owned pretty much every form factor since pre-unibody white plastic. Can't wait to see what they can do in that hyper minimal portable niche with Apple Silicon.
    - murukesh_s 6y ago
      haven't used it, but can feel it. you are making me want it more.. wish Steve was alive, he would have perhaps kept it alive at least for bragging rights as smallest, lightest laptop on planet. Still remember Steve jobs introducing air inside an office envelope.
  - em500 6y ago
    There are several rumours about a return of the 12-inch in 2021H1.
  - OkGoDoIt 6y ago
    I’m also surprised they didn’t bring that back with an M1. Here’s to hoping it will be released next year to balance out the higher end 16” pro and whatever others come out next yet. I had the 12” MacBook for a couple years and the form factor was amazing. I backpacked around the world with it. But it was so underpowered, it was barely useful. I found myself using my phone more and more because it was less frustrating. I would love to see what an M1-powered 12” MacBook could be like!
Aperocky 6y ago
So.. if I place it on a slab of ice, it would work the same as Pro? Tbh, the only reason I didn't even think of buying a pro is because I don't want the touch bar. I might still buy an air if there's no touch bar on the pro, but the decision will be a lot harder.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- d3nj4l 6y ago
  Both currently released M1 Pros have the touch bar, so it looks like your decision will be quite simple!
heipei 6y ago
I watched and read multiple reviews and Dave2D seems to be the only one who tried to quantify the throttling to some extent, all the others only had useless statements like "The Pro will probably be able to sustain unthrottled workloads for longer thanks to it's active cooling" - No shit, sherlock. For me the fact that it only throttles after 8-9 minutes (!) of heavy use is going to be the deciding factor that will allow me to go with the Air (and actual physical function keys) over the Pro, so thanks Dave.
- runeks 6y ago
  Couldn't the Pro just turn on its fans after 8-9 minutes (to avoid throttling), thus giving the best of both worlds?
  - molszanski 6y ago
    Best of both of worlds is: - active cooling - lack of a touchbar
    - grovellogic 6y ago
      I've been wondering if someone could make an active cooling dock for the Mac Book Air. I was even thinking the M1 wattage is low enough that you could have a thermoelectric cooler lowering case temp down to room temp.
      - 93po 6y ago
        I mean if you're desperate to get it to compile in 20 minutes instead of 25 for a particular occasion, you could just grab a bag of peas from the freezer and set the laptop on them.
      - geerlingguy 6y ago
        Got $300 to spare? https://svalt.com/products/cooling-dock https://svalt.com/products/cooling-dock
    - Siira 6y ago
em500 6y ago
Here's one data point: a WebKit compile took 25min on the Air vs 20min on the Mini/Pro. That 25min is still a bit faster than the Intel 16-inch Pro, which took 27min and waaay faster than Intel 13-inch Pro at 46min. The crazy thing is that both M1 MacBooks still had 91% battery left after the compile, vs 61% on the 16-inch Pro and 24% on the 13-inch Intel Pro. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/yeah-apples-m1-macbook-pro-is-powerful-but-its-the-battery-life-that-will-blow-you-away/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/yeah-apples-m1-macbook-pro... -> "Compiling WebKit"
- tonyhb 6y ago
  This is insane perf/watt. x86 backwards compatibility may have gotten us to where we are, but it's certainly holding it back. Arm is looking great, and maybe it's time for x86 to die.
  - JAlexoid 6y ago
    It's time for Intel and x86 to die. But I would also be a little wary, because ARM systems are way more locked down than x86 systems today.
    - comeonseriously 6y ago
      Why does Intel need to die? Sure they're not exactly the company they used to be, but would it be enough for them to just move away from x86? I'm just thinking I don't want just one or two or three companies doing procs.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        They don't need to die, but if they don't begin to compete they simple will die.
      - JAlexoid 6y ago
        Resource allocation. Intel dying would free up resources for development by other companies.
tomaskafka 6y ago
Having the experience (or, love/hate relationship - so awesomely thin and quiet, so underpowered) with 12" Macbook, one surprise is that throttle time really depends on environment temperature and GPU use. In a cool room it can last few minutes before throttling, while outside on a warm day it throttles almost instantly. Also, a thermal budget is shared with GPU, so once you plug-in the external display, or start Sidecar, you run out of thermal headspace pretty much instantly. I'd love to see these two factors tested.

Dave2D found the air to be on par with the Pro, at least for tasks that took under ~8.5 minutes. It only really throttled after that point, according to him.

by d3nj4l 6y ago

Dave2D found the air to be on par with the Pro, at least for tasks that took under ~8.5 minutes. It only really throttled after that point, according to him.

ghaff 6y ago

That's one data point that's particularly interesting to me. As someone who (normally) travels a great deal, I'd probably go with the Air unless there were real throttling compromises, especially given that I use a different computer for multimedia editing at home.

murukesh_s 6y ago
Wish they re-introduce the discontinued Macbook 12 inch with the same specs as air. It weighed only 970grams vs 1.29 kg for air. In fact air feels bulky compared to other light weight laptops like LG Gram, not to mention the design is outdated. Always wondered why Apple killed the smaller model. Perhaps they want to push the iPad pro so killed off the netbook line. The wannabe traveller inside me keep drooling at 12 inch whenever i see it in someones hands. It feels so light and compact. With new M1 silicon, it's the ideal time to bring it back. I would grab it without any thought.
- ghaff 6y ago
  I'm definitely part of the target market (well, depending upon my mood) for a <13" laptop for travel. I've never been able to make an iPad-based workflow work for me. If nothing else I spend too much time with my laptop on my, well, lap and nothing with a removable keyboard works for me. Based on the data I've seen so far, I'm not sure why they even did a with fan Pro variant. Even if the market for an 11-12" model is smaller I'm not sure why they didn't do that instead. I was sure that was going to be the reason they didn't refresh their 12" Intel system.
  - djrogers 6y ago
    > Based on the data I've seen so far, I'm not sure why they even did a with fan Pro variant. The ‘pro’ variant released was the low-end 13, aka the 2 port, formerly the ‘macbook escape’. The 13” line has been bifurcated since 2016, with this one firmly lower-spec’d and powered. It’s very likely that the ‘4 port’, or high-end 13” pro will make more use of the active cooling, so it was likely worth it to develop the new laptop with it.
- tinodotim 6y ago
  That would be a great device to also include a touchscreen in a mac for the first time... after all macOS is getting more and more touch-capable UI and got iOS app support. :) But like you said, likely would eat into the iPad market - on the other side, as long as they don't make it a 2-in-1, the iPad should still have more than enough reason to exist.
- Tagbert 6y ago
  The 12” MacBook could not be updated to newer Intel chipsets due to thermal issues. The single port was also a limitation. Once Apple upgraded the Air to retina, a large part of the market for the 12” was lost. They were too close to each other and cross-competed except for the super portable use cases which was not large enough. This model of Air is obviously a transition product with new guts in an old shell. I suspect that as Apple introduce fully redesigned, second generation Apple Silicon products, you might see something that is closer to the 12” MacBook.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    I'm also hoping for thinner bezels as the current models' ones are just huge compared to Dell's XPS line for example. It's slowly becoming obvious that the design has barely changed since 2016 or so. The 16" model was a step in the right direction, but it's still not even close to what Dell is delivering. It'd be amazing if they managed to squeeze a 13" screen into the old 12" form factor - you'd still get great battery life thanks to the M1.
    - snowwrestler 6y ago
      It seems like Apple is capable of it—look at the bezels on a new iPhone or iPad. But it would certainly require a whole new shell, which probably takes a while for Apple to design and ramp up because of all the machining involved.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  They should probably release an 11" version of the air, I'm not sure a 12" having the same specs as the Air would be viable. However the interesting part would be what are they gonna do with their iPad Pro line at this point I don't see a reason for it not to run Big Sur or the Bigger Sur they'll release next year and compete directly with the surface. What I see Apple doing is the following: iPhone/iPad non-pro continuing to use A series SoCs and run iOS iPad Pro migrate to M series SoCs and become what is essentially Apple's Surface Pro Macbook Air 13" and 11" (possibly drop to a single 12" model) with M series SoCs this essentially will be the Surface Laptop/Book competitor Macbook Pro's will continue as they are 13" and 16" models, if Apple goes for 11" and 13" MBAs they might move the MBP to 14" and 16". Without discrete GPUs and essentially no way to "upgrade" the CPU to a higher model I don't really see the MBP 13" being viable in the long term tbh, I think they'll need a model that will differentiate it much more from the MBA and unless Apple starts binning their future M series SoCs much more in line with Intel and AMD I don't see them having too much of a range here for upgrades. So alternatively I also see them dropping the 13" MBP altogether and having only a 15" or 16" on whilst the Air will occupy the smaller form factors.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Convergence can be overrated. Arguably Apple finally made tablets mainstream because they didn't feel the same need to maintain compatibility with their desktop/laptop line that others did. But it's hard not to see some sort of convergence between mobile, laptops, and desktops over time.
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      They are doing convergence now with allowing iOS apps on Macs I can definitely see the iPad Pro line being moved closer to MacOS from a UI perspective, especially since the pen now works on all iPads.
- sooheon 6y ago
  The 12 inch is still my favorite MacBook experience, having owned pretty much every form factor since pre-unibody white plastic. Can't wait to see what they can do in that hyper minimal portable niche with Apple Silicon.
  - murukesh_s 6y ago
    haven't used it, but can feel it. you are making me want it more.. wish Steve was alive, he would have perhaps kept it alive at least for bragging rights as smallest, lightest laptop on planet. Still remember Steve jobs introducing air inside an office envelope.
- em500 6y ago
  There are several rumours about a return of the 12-inch in 2021H1.
- OkGoDoIt 6y ago
  I’m also surprised they didn’t bring that back with an M1. Here’s to hoping it will be released next year to balance out the higher end 16” pro and whatever others come out next yet. I had the 12” MacBook for a couple years and the form factor was amazing. I backpacked around the world with it. But it was so underpowered, it was barely useful. I found myself using my phone more and more because it was less frustrating. I would love to see what an M1-powered 12” MacBook could be like!

Aperocky 6y ago

So.. if I place it on a slab of ice, it would work the same as Pro? Tbh, the only reason I didn't even think of buying a pro is because I don't want the touch bar. I might still buy an air if there's no touch bar on the pro, but the decision will be a lot harder.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
d3nj4l 6y ago
Both currently released M1 Pros have the touch bar, so it looks like your decision will be quite simple!

heipei 6y ago

I watched and read multiple reviews and Dave2D seems to be the only one who tried to quantify the throttling to some extent, all the others only had useless statements like "The Pro will probably be able to sustain unthrottled workloads for longer thanks to it's active cooling" - No shit, sherlock. For me the fact that it only throttles after 8-9 minutes (!) of heavy use is going to be the deciding factor that will allow me to go with the Air (and actual physical function keys) over the Pro, so thanks Dave.

runeks 6y ago
Couldn't the Pro just turn on its fans after 8-9 minutes (to avoid throttling), thus giving the best of both worlds?
- molszanski 6y ago
  Best of both of worlds is: - active cooling - lack of a touchbar
  - grovellogic 6y ago
    I've been wondering if someone could make an active cooling dock for the Mac Book Air. I was even thinking the M1 wattage is low enough that you could have a thermoelectric cooler lowering case temp down to room temp.
    - 93po 6y ago
      I mean if you're desperate to get it to compile in 20 minutes instead of 25 for a particular occasion, you could just grab a bag of peas from the freezer and set the laptop on them.
    - geerlingguy 6y ago
      Got $300 to spare? https://svalt.com/products/cooling-dock https://svalt.com/products/cooling-dock
  - Siira 6y ago

em500 6y ago

Here's one data point: a WebKit compile took 25min on the Air vs 20min on the Mini/Pro. That 25min is still a bit faster than the Intel 16-inch Pro, which took 27min and waaay faster than Intel 13-inch Pro at 46min. The crazy thing is that both M1 MacBooks still had 91% battery left after the compile, vs 61% on the 16-inch Pro and 24% on the 13-inch Intel Pro. [1] https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/yeah-apples-m1-macbook-pro-is-powerful-but-its-the-battery-life-that-will-blow-you-away/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/yeah-apples-m1-macbook-pro... -> "Compiling WebKit"

tonyhb 6y ago
This is insane perf/watt. x86 backwards compatibility may have gotten us to where we are, but it's certainly holding it back. Arm is looking great, and maybe it's time for x86 to die.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  It's time for Intel and x86 to die. But I would also be a little wary, because ARM systems are way more locked down than x86 systems today.
  - comeonseriously 6y ago
    Why does Intel need to die? Sure they're not exactly the company they used to be, but would it be enough for them to just move away from x86? I'm just thinking I don't want just one or two or three companies doing procs.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      They don't need to die, but if they don't begin to compete they simple will die.
    - JAlexoid 6y ago
      Resource allocation. Intel dying would free up resources for development by other companies.

tomaskafka 6y ago

Having the experience (or, love/hate relationship - so awesomely thin and quiet, so underpowered) with 12" Macbook, one surprise is that throttle time really depends on environment temperature and GPU use. In a cool room it can last few minutes before throttling, while outside on a warm day it throttles almost instantly. Also, a thermal budget is shared with GPU, so once you plug-in the external display, or start Sidecar, you run out of thermal headspace pretty much instantly. I'd love to see these two factors tested.