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The world's slowest-moving Ponzi scheme will continue to grow until either Tether explodes, or enough people want to cash out.

txmachinery 6y ago
From the PoV of BTC-proponents, this could be a description of fiat.
bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
There's a real chance that Tether explodes, Bitcoin crashes... and then rises again because another Tether-like on ramp will appear.
- mekster 6y ago
  Tether time bomb can be the next winter if this is meant to be a serious bull run.
nulld3v 6y ago
I hold a little Bitcoin that I use to buy servers and other stuff online. People have been saying "Bitcoin is dead" for the last 10 years. I'll watch them say it for another 10 years. Yes, Bitcoin has problems. The transaction fees are pretty high. Transactions are slow as molasses. It's value fluctuates wildly. But I don't care because I only really use it on large transactions online. Bitcoin is great for me because it takes me 1 click to send money to anybody else who uses it. If I send a transaction with a decent fee I know 100% it's going to go through. It won't get blocked by my bank for fraud. The government will have no idea I sent the transaction (Bitcoin isn't 100% anon but it's more anon than most other systems). The other party also knows that once the transaction is confirmed, I won't be able to dispute it. I'm also 100% confident that my money is mine alone. Nobody is able to freeze my funds. You can't take my Bitcoin even if you rob my house. It's the confidence combined by the guarantees that gives Bitcoin so much value to me.
- drchopchop 6y ago
  Well, I never said Bitcoin is "dead", I said it's a Ponzi scheme. People will be able to withdraw their funds until someday, they can't. (Or the value decreases to a pittance of what they put in) You definitely have a small but meaningful use case. I don't see how that makes it worth the current $300B market cap.
  - nulld3v 6y ago
    I definitely agree with you from an investment standpoint. Bitcoin as a short term (and maybe even long term) investment is a horrible idea in my eyes as its value is all over the place. But from the definition on Wikipedia, a Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud, which itself Wikipedia defines as "intentional deception". I wouldn't say that Bitcoin or the Bitcoin project itself is intentionally trying to deceive you into using it as an investment. Maybe all the companies that are advertising Bitcoin as an investment are though. I also do believe Bitcoin is overvalued currently. It makes sense to me that the value of each Bitcoin would grow over time, just not at the crazy speed it's currently growing at.
  - lbblack 6y ago
    Ponzi schemes are different than Bitcoin, which is a cryptocurrency by very definition. From Wikipedia, "A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own." Bitcoin isn't a business, it's an asset with decentralized production and a distributed ledger. Also, assuming the network isn't down (which it never has been to date) you can liquidate in full immediately. The asset exists and maintains ownership on an individual basis, therefore in direct contradiction to a Ponzi scheme. I think you could possibly argue that stocks are Ponzi schemes too by your description. Correct me if I'm wrong, it was developed around the 2008 era financial crisis to act as an alternative to US Dollars, in the event that pulling out cash from a bank is no longer a valid option. Public exchanges offer a variety of options to trade BTC to USD, but there wasn't really any of that about a decade ago. It seems more like some of tech has absorbed crypto and incorporated, or designed, their products around it. And personally it doesn't seem likely that cypherpunks have the highest regard for corporate America.
RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago
No currency out there actually makes any sense if you think about it. They are all just numbers with relative worth to each other. The good thing about bitcoin is that its a constant, whereas other numbers we trade with are either increased through mining, such as gold, or in the case of the dollar, fabricated through the computer.
mekster 6y ago
Technically, it's sound, so not sure how you call it a ponzi scheme unless you're just trolling without understanding it.
conanbatt 6y ago
I used to believe Tether had to crash 3 years ago. 3 years ago and its still trades on par. Tether is working and working very well, its just not transparent to retails, only to exchanges.

txmachinery 6y ago

From the PoV of BTC-proponents, this could be a description of fiat.

bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago

There's a real chance that Tether explodes, Bitcoin crashes... and then rises again because another Tether-like on ramp will appear.

mekster 6y ago
Tether time bomb can be the next winter if this is meant to be a serious bull run.

nulld3v 6y ago

I hold a little Bitcoin that I use to buy servers and other stuff online. People have been saying "Bitcoin is dead" for the last 10 years. I'll watch them say it for another 10 years. Yes, Bitcoin has problems. The transaction fees are pretty high. Transactions are slow as molasses. It's value fluctuates wildly. But I don't care because I only really use it on large transactions online. Bitcoin is great for me because it takes me 1 click to send money to anybody else who uses it. If I send a transaction with a decent fee I know 100% it's going to go through. It won't get blocked by my bank for fraud. The government will have no idea I sent the transaction (Bitcoin isn't 100% anon but it's more anon than most other systems). The other party also knows that once the transaction is confirmed, I won't be able to dispute it. I'm also 100% confident that my money is mine alone. Nobody is able to freeze my funds. You can't take my Bitcoin even if you rob my house. It's the confidence combined by the guarantees that gives Bitcoin so much value to me.

drchopchop 6y ago
Well, I never said Bitcoin is "dead", I said it's a Ponzi scheme. People will be able to withdraw their funds until someday, they can't. (Or the value decreases to a pittance of what they put in) You definitely have a small but meaningful use case. I don't see how that makes it worth the current $300B market cap.
- nulld3v 6y ago
  I definitely agree with you from an investment standpoint. Bitcoin as a short term (and maybe even long term) investment is a horrible idea in my eyes as its value is all over the place. But from the definition on Wikipedia, a Ponzi scheme is a form of fraud, which itself Wikipedia defines as "intentional deception". I wouldn't say that Bitcoin or the Bitcoin project itself is intentionally trying to deceive you into using it as an investment. Maybe all the companies that are advertising Bitcoin as an investment are though. I also do believe Bitcoin is overvalued currently. It makes sense to me that the value of each Bitcoin would grow over time, just not at the crazy speed it's currently growing at.
- lbblack 6y ago
  Ponzi schemes are different than Bitcoin, which is a cryptocurrency by very definition. From Wikipedia, "A Ponzi scheme can maintain the illusion of a sustainable business as long as new investors contribute new funds, and as long as most of the investors do not demand full repayment and still believe in the non-existent assets they are purported to own." Bitcoin isn't a business, it's an asset with decentralized production and a distributed ledger. Also, assuming the network isn't down (which it never has been to date) you can liquidate in full immediately. The asset exists and maintains ownership on an individual basis, therefore in direct contradiction to a Ponzi scheme. I think you could possibly argue that stocks are Ponzi schemes too by your description. Correct me if I'm wrong, it was developed around the 2008 era financial crisis to act as an alternative to US Dollars, in the event that pulling out cash from a bank is no longer a valid option. Public exchanges offer a variety of options to trade BTC to USD, but there wasn't really any of that about a decade ago. It seems more like some of tech has absorbed crypto and incorporated, or designed, their products around it. And personally it doesn't seem likely that cypherpunks have the highest regard for corporate America.

RedBeetDeadpool 6y ago

No currency out there actually makes any sense if you think about it. They are all just numbers with relative worth to each other. The good thing about bitcoin is that its a constant, whereas other numbers we trade with are either increased through mining, such as gold, or in the case of the dollar, fabricated through the computer.

mekster 6y ago

Technically, it's sound, so not sure how you call it a ponzi scheme unless you're just trolling without understanding it.

conanbatt 6y ago

I used to believe Tether had to crash 3 years ago. 3 years ago and its still trades on par. Tether is working and working very well, its just not transparent to retails, only to exchanges.