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Yep. He circumvented rate-limiters that ensured that you couldn't game the booking system. The regulations very clearly prohibit this to ensure fair access. No

Yep. He circumvented rate-limiters that ensured that you couldn't game the booking system. The regulations very clearly prohibit this to ensure fair access. Now, one can absolutely argue about whether this form of rate limiting is the right approach, but to circumvent something that is clearly prohibited & charge money to do that is illegal. This does not mean that I think the current system is perfect OR that there aren't other players who also have backdoors into the process; just that the action is not as egregious as 'BUREAUCRATS STIFILING INNOVATION'. There is more nuance needed here [1]. "According to the sources, the apps enabled users to book Tatkal tickets bypassing security checks on the IRCTC portal. His mobile applications were unauthorized and had features to bypasses Completely Automated Public Turing Test (CAPTCHA), a security measure that users must fill in while logging in to IRCTC. As per reports the apps also bypassed other security measures installed by the IRCTC." ... "However, railway officials clarified Yuvrajaa bypassed the railway system and made money illegally which is a crime. He wasn’t event an authorized agent registered with IRCTC to book tickets. RPF has registered a case under section 143 (2) of the Railways Act (penalty for unauthorised carrying on of the business of procuring and supplying of railway tickets). Developing an unauthorised software bypassing e-ticketing system is an offence. Such applications defeated the purpose of having a first-come-first-serve system and benefit only a few who use the software." This govt., like most Indian govts, has a stupidly archaic & top-down / low-trust / risk-averse / bean-counter approach to innovation and transparency (case in point, the Covid tracking app Arogya Setu's sordid development & transparency issues), but this specific incident isn't the right stick, IMO. :) [1] https://www.the420.in/conman-or-genius-arrest-of-iit-kharagpur-student-who-made-faster-rail-ticket-booking-app-than-irctc-sparks-debate/ https://www.the420.in/conman-or-genius-arrest-of-iit-kharagp...

yitchelle 6y ago
You see similar software used in Auction sites such as eBay and the likes. Are this type of software also banned in India?
- moh_maya 6y ago
  AFAIK, for railways ticket bookings, yes; not banned but illegal. However, it's common knowledge that they exist and are used.
  - jaikant77 6y ago
    India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?
    - ch_123 6y ago
      You're attacking a strawman here. The issue was that he was making a profit by reselling tickets, not by automating filling forms in a website. The mechanism is not particularly relevant. By analogy, it is legal to park my car in my own garden, but not legal to park it in my neighbour's garden. If I were to do that, I might expect to be punished for "parking my car".
      - jkoudys 6y ago
        You start by accusing him of using a strawman, then using an analogy which doesn't even remotely apply. It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands. Even my closer analogy is still pretty far off and it's much more innocent. Maybe closer to charging a fee to use a very tricky to figure out parking meter.
        ch_123 6y ago
        > It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands. That's a good analogy, but perhaps not for the reason you think. In many situations where you acquire property rights from an owner, there are clauses which restrict or limit sub-leasing to a third party, or using the land for commercial gain. If I was doing what you are describing, I would want to read the lease or agreement very carefully to see whether I am allowed to do that. Again, I think the developer acted in good faith, but it seems a bit naive to resell something for profit (no matter how small) without seeking legal advice, or at very least reading the T&Cs. We also cannot accuse the government of setting arbitrary restrictions - ticket touting is a problem, even if the government probably could have done more to make it easier for people to buy tickets legitimately.
- dathinab 6y ago
  In many country's such software is illegal and you can be held accountable, especially if you provide it in a way which makes you earn money. If you make sure your software is just more economical/accessible without giving a unfair advantage is often less illegal or at least tolerated in many counties. And many counties include EU countries like Germany.
smdz 6y ago
This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially. Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? If Railways gave 10 Rs for each such failure, they will go bankrupt within 2 hours. First-come-first-serve does not mean fair access when they can't fix their technical problems. And this guy charged money only after the cost of the servers was high. To give a context the alleged amount between 2016 and 2020 he earned in 4 years is in the range of 27k-30kUSD. That is as per Railways. It is likely to be inflated. Pretty sure he was running into losses. However I doubt he is totally innocent. Most developers would know this app would be illegal. Or may be he is just too naive - hard to say that since he is an IITian. The railways will probably find out each ticket booked, heavily penalize each such booking, add huge interest to that till date and make the total amount sound like a huge scam. Adventures with Indian bureaucracy will cost him big unless he manages to heavily PR himself as a victim.
- kranner 6y ago
  > Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? Inept as it is, the official website still intends to provides fair access. Just because it is buggy does not make it OK to circumvent it, especially when such circumvention only reduces access for users who are not using this developer's software. I say this as someone who has used the IRCTC website to book tickets. Tatkal tickets especially are nightmarishly hard to book.
  - smdz 6y ago
    I am not saying it is OK to circumvent rules. BTW my access was revoked because they assumed I was using some automation - when I know I was not using any such thing. I am just good at computers and not even a fast typist. No response to my appeal - stopped using tatkal since then and fortunately never needed it after that.
sriku 6y ago
I agree this needs more nuance instead of pitching it as a david-vs-goliath. The railways has made steady progress on making it easier to ticket starting with an old mainframe system and transitioning into the web age. Such transitions at the scale of Indian Railways are not to be underestimated and it is not only about a website as real physical trains are involved. They've introduced interim measures to ensure reasonably fair access to seats since they need to cater to a financially spread out populace and there is always someone waiting to make a quick buck out of it. The rate limits are important I think to not overwhelm the system and I do not for a moment believe that IRCTC is working against the people here. I say that from personal experience where one of the IT ops lead personally responded to an email suggestion I sent in (exchange was about 15y ago) to enable people without credit cards to more easily purchase tickets without dealing with long queues at counters.
- throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
  > starting with an old mainframe system (partly tongue-in-cheek) Maybe it was not that bad to start with (was it based on CICS?) Are there any whitepapers or design overview presentations by CRIS or anybody else?

yitchelle 6y ago

You see similar software used in Auction sites such as eBay and the likes. Are this type of software also banned in India?

moh_maya 6y ago
AFAIK, for railways ticket bookings, yes; not banned but illegal. However, it's common knowledge that they exist and are used.
- jaikant77 6y ago
  India has a strong legal framework and unfortunately very poor implementation (the arrest is an example of poor implementation/bullying by the state). When you say illegal, you should be able to specify the law under which it is illegal. Broadly classifying anything not convenient to the state as illegal does not stand ground, AFAIK there is no law which prohibits automation of forms on any website?
  - ch_123 6y ago
    You're attacking a strawman here. The issue was that he was making a profit by reselling tickets, not by automating filling forms in a website. The mechanism is not particularly relevant. By analogy, it is legal to park my car in my own garden, but not legal to park it in my neighbour's garden. If I were to do that, I might expect to be punished for "parking my car".
    - jkoudys 6y ago
      You start by accusing him of using a strawman, then using an analogy which doesn't even remotely apply. It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands. Even my closer analogy is still pretty far off and it's much more innocent. Maybe closer to charging a fee to use a very tricky to figure out parking meter.
      - ch_123 6y ago
        > It's closer to your neighbour selling you the rights to park in their garden, then you selling those rights to someone else. Far from a criminal, arrestable offence, so their point on the broad-brush of being "illegal" stands. That's a good analogy, but perhaps not for the reason you think. In many situations where you acquire property rights from an owner, there are clauses which restrict or limit sub-leasing to a third party, or using the land for commercial gain. If I was doing what you are describing, I would want to read the lease or agreement very carefully to see whether I am allowed to do that. Again, I think the developer acted in good faith, but it seems a bit naive to resell something for profit (no matter how small) without seeking legal advice, or at very least reading the T&Cs. We also cannot accuse the government of setting arbitrary restrictions - ticket touting is a problem, even if the government probably could have done more to make it easier for people to buy tickets legitimately.
dathinab 6y ago
In many country's such software is illegal and you can be held accountable, especially if you provide it in a way which makes you earn money. If you make sure your software is just more economical/accessible without giving a unfair advantage is often less illegal or at least tolerated in many counties. And many counties include EU countries like Germany.

smdz 6y ago

This is a case of 'BUREAUCRATS STIFLING INNOVATION' and this is how it often looks like. He could have gone through legal channels to approve his app and would not be able to find approvals even after being able to afford those financially. Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? If Railways gave 10 Rs for each such failure, they will go bankrupt within 2 hours. First-come-first-serve does not mean fair access when they can't fix their technical problems. And this guy charged money only after the cost of the servers was high. To give a context the alleged amount between 2016 and 2020 he earned in 4 years is in the range of 27k-30kUSD. That is as per Railways. It is likely to be inflated. Pretty sure he was running into losses. However I doubt he is totally innocent. Most developers would know this app would be illegal. Or may be he is just too naive - hard to say that since he is an IITian. The railways will probably find out each ticket booked, heavily penalize each such booking, add huge interest to that till date and make the total amount sound like a huge scam. Adventures with Indian bureaucracy will cost him big unless he manages to heavily PR himself as a victim.

kranner 6y ago
> Fair access is not provided by the official website. When one clicks "Book" and then suddenly get an Internal Server Error in network logs (while UI shows in-progress icon) or gets logged out - where is Fair Access? Inept as it is, the official website still intends to provides fair access. Just because it is buggy does not make it OK to circumvent it, especially when such circumvention only reduces access for users who are not using this developer's software. I say this as someone who has used the IRCTC website to book tickets. Tatkal tickets especially are nightmarishly hard to book.
- smdz 6y ago
  I am not saying it is OK to circumvent rules. BTW my access was revoked because they assumed I was using some automation - when I know I was not using any such thing. I am just good at computers and not even a fast typist. No response to my appeal - stopped using tatkal since then and fortunately never needed it after that.

sriku 6y ago

I agree this needs more nuance instead of pitching it as a david-vs-goliath. The railways has made steady progress on making it easier to ticket starting with an old mainframe system and transitioning into the web age. Such transitions at the scale of Indian Railways are not to be underestimated and it is not only about a website as real physical trains are involved. They've introduced interim measures to ensure reasonably fair access to seats since they need to cater to a financially spread out populace and there is always someone waiting to make a quick buck out of it. The rate limits are important I think to not overwhelm the system and I do not for a moment believe that IRCTC is working against the people here. I say that from personal experience where one of the IT ops lead personally responded to an email suggestion I sent in (exchange was about 15y ago) to enable people without credit cards to more easily purchase tickets without dealing with long queues at counters.

throwawaybutwhy 6y ago
> starting with an old mainframe system (partly tongue-in-cheek) Maybe it was not that bad to start with (was it based on CICS?) Are there any whitepapers or design overview presentations by CRIS or anybody else?