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> Wow, this is an alternative version of the history I was taught during my high school, as well as Wiki. Lin Zexu [1] carried out destruction of opium stock at

> Wow, this is an alternative version of the history I was taught during my high school, as well as Wiki. Lin Zexu [1] carried out destruction of opium stock at Humen [2]. It was mostly successful in destroying the flow of opium from one its major import source. And disturbed the traders. Eventually results into the 1840's Opium War which requires Britain intervene [3]. You describe what happened but not why. Merchants inside and outside of China wanted to exchange goods and imperial China wanted to restrict this. War was the result. > one can reasonably state that Chinese people in 1840s are totally incapable of independent thinking It's interesting that you say this because this is China's current position, that Chinese people in 2020 are too dumb for democracy. It's just another excuse used by those in power to subjugate the population. Embracing people's lack of knowledge and encouraging them to find good ideas on their own is a feature, not a bug.

justicezyx 6y ago
Again, what you said is like drug dealers want to trade drugs. That's not comparable to what ought to be discussed. You instead should focus on the fact that Qing dynasty had a very weak government, which is neither capable of manage her own internal affairs, nor defend herself from foreign invasions. That's totally different from Xi's China, which can rule China like a company forcing citizens to behave in certain manners, while also project it's influence far and deep.
- unityByFreedom 6y ago
  > Again, what you said is like drug dealers want to trade drugs. That's not comparable to what ought to be discussed. The stakes during the so-called "Opium Wars" can be seen in the agreements made at the end of it [1], - China would not establish any more monopolies over its domestic trade - Several more Chinese ports would open up to foreign trade - Chinese law would not restrict practicing Christianity - Foreign diplomats would be allowed permanent stations in Beijing - Foreigners would be permitted to travel within China [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin#Major_points https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin#Major_point...
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    Can we stop playing the word game and admit that opium trade is illegal both in China and Britain? And use it to prove that domestic merchants can challenge ccp and force the current Chinese government to change behavior is as about nonsensical as claiming Trump did a perfect job in fighting COVID-19...
    - unityByFreedom 6y ago
      > Can we stop playing the word game and admit that opium trade is illegal both in China and Britain? Yes, China/Britain have long since cracked down on opium trade and that has been a joint effort. What of it? The devil is in the details. The "Opium Wars" were about more than drugs and it is reductionist to only look at its impact on the drug trade. > And use it to prove that domestic merchants can challenge ccp and force the current Chinese government to change behavior is as about nonsensical as claiming Trump did a perfect job in fighting COVID-19... The desires of Chinese people certainly do impact their government's actions.
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  > You instead should focus on the fact that Qing dynasty had a very weak government, which is neither capable of manage her own internal affairs, nor defend herself from foreign invasions. This seems a little broad. The Qing dynasty covers a period of about 300 years. Sometimes they were very strong. Sometimes they were weak. But even that is kind of a shallow view of things. They enforced a law that all Chinese males had to wear the Manchu hairstyle. This was incredibly unpopular, but it stuck. They also banned the binding of women's feet. That ban had no effect at all. Where do those two positions belong on a scale of "government strength"? They look objectively similar to me.
  - justicezyx 6y ago
    > They enforced a law that all Chinese males had to wear the Manchu hairstyle. This was incredibly unpopular, but it stuck. It seems that claiming out of context statements on China becomes a standard now? This was possible because people are killed in tens of thousands. How is that even relevant to the discussion of whether or not today’s Chinese merchants can force government policy changes? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangzhou_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangzhou_massacre

justicezyx 6y ago

Again, what you said is like drug dealers want to trade drugs. That's not comparable to what ought to be discussed. You instead should focus on the fact that Qing dynasty had a very weak government, which is neither capable of manage her own internal affairs, nor defend herself from foreign invasions. That's totally different from Xi's China, which can rule China like a company forcing citizens to behave in certain manners, while also project it's influence far and deep.

unityByFreedom 6y ago
> Again, what you said is like drug dealers want to trade drugs. That's not comparable to what ought to be discussed. The stakes during the so-called "Opium Wars" can be seen in the agreements made at the end of it [1], - China would not establish any more monopolies over its domestic trade - Several more Chinese ports would open up to foreign trade - Chinese law would not restrict practicing Christianity - Foreign diplomats would be allowed permanent stations in Beijing - Foreigners would be permitted to travel within China [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin#Major_points https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tientsin#Major_point...
- justicezyx 6y ago
  Can we stop playing the word game and admit that opium trade is illegal both in China and Britain? And use it to prove that domestic merchants can challenge ccp and force the current Chinese government to change behavior is as about nonsensical as claiming Trump did a perfect job in fighting COVID-19...
  - unityByFreedom 6y ago
    > Can we stop playing the word game and admit that opium trade is illegal both in China and Britain? Yes, China/Britain have long since cracked down on opium trade and that has been a joint effort. What of it? The devil is in the details. The "Opium Wars" were about more than drugs and it is reductionist to only look at its impact on the drug trade. > And use it to prove that domestic merchants can challenge ccp and force the current Chinese government to change behavior is as about nonsensical as claiming Trump did a perfect job in fighting COVID-19... The desires of Chinese people certainly do impact their government's actions.
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> You instead should focus on the fact that Qing dynasty had a very weak government, which is neither capable of manage her own internal affairs, nor defend herself from foreign invasions. This seems a little broad. The Qing dynasty covers a period of about 300 years. Sometimes they were very strong. Sometimes they were weak. But even that is kind of a shallow view of things. They enforced a law that all Chinese males had to wear the Manchu hairstyle. This was incredibly unpopular, but it stuck. They also banned the binding of women's feet. That ban had no effect at all. Where do those two positions belong on a scale of "government strength"? They look objectively similar to me.
- justicezyx 6y ago
  > They enforced a law that all Chinese males had to wear the Manchu hairstyle. This was incredibly unpopular, but it stuck. It seems that claiming out of context statements on China becomes a standard now? This was possible because people are killed in tens of thousands. How is that even relevant to the discussion of whether or not today’s Chinese merchants can force government policy changes? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangzhou_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yangzhou_massacre