4 ms·

It seems unreasonable to call something "noise" if it's meant to be kept. Most traditional definitions of that word would not apply to things like syncopation a

It seems unreasonable to call something "noise" if it's meant to be kept. Most traditional definitions of that word would not apply to things like syncopation and variation

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
"Timing variations" as mentioned in the comment I was replying to was, in context, "noise". If the performer was adding syncopation or other "planned" variation, then sure, it's information, but I don't think that is what was meant.
- modeless 6y ago
  That is what was meant, in part, as indicated by the comment "which can be intentional". And even unintentional variation can be desired, as it makes the sound less robotic. Noise can be information too.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    My reading of this was different. I felt that the commenter was noting how the timing information in MIDI is not restricted to the note types represented in sheet music, and can include swing and shuffle that could not be represented in that format. If those timing variations were intentional, then I agree they represent information. If they are just sloppy playing, they are noise. And if the performer is just applying a stylistic form ("swing these bars"), then it's an inefficient encoding of the musical intent.
    - cordellwren 6y ago
      Consistent microtiming deviations or other forms of "expressive timing" are an essential element to "groove" or rhythmic "feel" in almost all modern popular styles of music. Things can get even crazier with world music styles like Samba, and let's not even get started with classical rubato. And yet notating any of that information in every bar as, say, three-quarters to one-and-a-half hemidemisemiquavers early or late to each offbeat defeats the purpose of having a readable score. The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance. That's not a bug, but a feature.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        >The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance. This is precisely part of my point, or would be if you corrected it. The score contains, either implicitly or explicitly, global performance clues that will tell the performer what to do about timing (and if it doesn't that's because it is expected to come from a conductor or other similar source). It's a highly efficient mechanism precisely because it is a global property of the score (or perhaps locally scoped to sections). Much better than providing timing information for every note (as MIDI would do). The MIDI version is an inefficient means of information transfer. BTW, things do not get even crazier with "world music styles like samba". Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures - the complexities come from layering a set of very simple patterns. Things do get "even crazier" with rhythmic traditions from Indian, Balinese and some parts of Africa, places where conventional western ways of describing things really don't do a good job at all.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures Samba isn’t Afro-Cuban derived, whether in its rhythmic structures or otherwise.
        PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        Sorry, I wrote that down in a misleading way. Afro/Cuban might have been better, but what I really meant was "rhythmic structures influenced by African and/or Cuban musical culture", which samba definitely was. That's redundant in a way, because Cuban forms themselves are deeply indebted (if not directly playing) African forms, but my understanding is that there was a particular development/expansion of things in Cuba (much as in Brasil) that is perhaps best understood as a new branch of the tree. Samba doesn't owe anything in particular to Cuban traditions, but does draw on other African percussive structures.
        cordellwren 6y ago
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

It seems unreasonable to call something "noise" if it's meant to be kept. Most traditional definitions of that word would not apply to things like syncopation and variation

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

"Timing variations" as mentioned in the comment I was replying to was, in context, "noise". If the performer was adding syncopation or other "planned" variation, then sure, it's information, but I don't think that is what was meant.

modeless 6y ago
That is what was meant, in part, as indicated by the comment "which can be intentional". And even unintentional variation can be desired, as it makes the sound less robotic. Noise can be information too.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  My reading of this was different. I felt that the commenter was noting how the timing information in MIDI is not restricted to the note types represented in sheet music, and can include swing and shuffle that could not be represented in that format. If those timing variations were intentional, then I agree they represent information. If they are just sloppy playing, they are noise. And if the performer is just applying a stylistic form ("swing these bars"), then it's an inefficient encoding of the musical intent.
  - cordellwren 6y ago
    Consistent microtiming deviations or other forms of "expressive timing" are an essential element to "groove" or rhythmic "feel" in almost all modern popular styles of music. Things can get even crazier with world music styles like Samba, and let's not even get started with classical rubato. And yet notating any of that information in every bar as, say, three-quarters to one-and-a-half hemidemisemiquavers early or late to each offbeat defeats the purpose of having a readable score. The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance. That's not a bug, but a feature.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      >The score is a reduction that's intentionally lacking tons of information that defines the essence of a performance. This is precisely part of my point, or would be if you corrected it. The score contains, either implicitly or explicitly, global performance clues that will tell the performer what to do about timing (and if it doesn't that's because it is expected to come from a conductor or other similar source). It's a highly efficient mechanism precisely because it is a global property of the score (or perhaps locally scoped to sections). Much better than providing timing information for every note (as MIDI would do). The MIDI version is an inefficient means of information transfer. BTW, things do not get even crazier with "world music styles like samba". Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures - the complexities come from layering a set of very simple patterns. Things do get "even crazier" with rhythmic traditions from Indian, Balinese and some parts of Africa, places where conventional western ways of describing things really don't do a good job at all.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > Samba is an extremely regular groove that is very easy to understand. This is true of most Afro-Cuban derived rhythmic structures Samba isn’t Afro-Cuban derived, whether in its rhythmic structures or otherwise.
        PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        Sorry, I wrote that down in a misleading way. Afro/Cuban might have been better, but what I really meant was "rhythmic structures influenced by African and/or Cuban musical culture", which samba definitely was. That's redundant in a way, because Cuban forms themselves are deeply indebted (if not directly playing) African forms, but my understanding is that there was a particular development/expansion of things in Cuba (much as in Brasil) that is perhaps best understood as a new branch of the tree. Samba doesn't owe anything in particular to Cuban traditions, but does draw on other African percussive structures.
      - cordellwren 6y ago
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]