5 ms·

> The cameras are relatively simple to operate. They constantly record everything in front of them, but only save 30 seconds of video at a time. To record an en

> The cameras are relatively simple to operate. They constantly record everything in front of them, but only save 30 seconds of video at a time. To record an entire incident, the officer must double press the “event” button in the center of the camera. So non-compliance is the default. And compliance failure is as easy as an incorrect double-press that fails to start recording. Is there even any feedback that the double-press has registered? Why not buffer 5 hours by default?

throwaway894345 6y ago
Agreed. I assumed they buffered the whole work day such that following an incident, the investigating officers (and not the officer under investigation) would initiate the persistence of a particular incident.
Cancan82 6y ago
Because that would work actually work? We don’t actually want to have recordings, just say that we have them. But seriously, I would imagine the storage costs aren’t that terrible relative to the costs it would save in lawsuits for the police departments ?
davidf560 6y ago
> Why not buffer 5 hours by default? Because then you end up with recordings of things that you shouldn't have, like the officer using the restroom or a victim who has asked not to be recorded. Also, several minutes of buffer fits nicely in RAM. 5 hours would require a lot more RAM (making devices more expensive and thus harder to get deployed) or would require it to be written to flash disk which introduces new technical and legal issues. Additionally, recording 5 hours for each incident has one significant problem: every video that gets recorded has to be stored on device during the shift (not a big problem), but it also has to be offloaded and stored somewhere for archival. Do the math sometime on what kind of bandwidth and storage capacity a large agency like NYPD, LAPD, Chicago PD, etc. would need to upload several hours worth of officer-recorded video each day. I've done that math and the numbers are staggering.
- gruez 6y ago
  >Also, several minutes of buffer fits nicely in RAM. 5 hours would require a lot more RAM (making devices more expensive and thus harder to get deployed) or would require it to be written to flash disk which introduces new technical and legal issues. If you're concerned about writing potentially sensitive video to non-volatile storage, that can be solved via technical means. Just encrypt the video with an ephemeral key kept in memory, then store the encrypted video on non-volatile storage. You get best of both worlds. >I've done that math and the numbers are staggering. Mind showing your calculations? Keep in mind you don't have to store the videos in perpetuity. Limiting it to 180 days (with option to extend if the incident is being disputed) would suffice for most cases.
  - davidf560 6y ago
    > If you're concerned about writing potentially sensitive video to non-volatile storage, that can be solved via technical means. Just encrypt the video with an ephemeral key kept in memory, then store the encrypted video on non-volatile storage. You get best of both worlds. Once you've recorded that video it's subject to FOIA requests and rules of evidence and all kinds of things like that. If your recording only includes the past minute or 2, you can be reasonably sure it doesn't include something it shouldn't (such as a victim who asked not to be recorded from an hour ago). If hitting that button commits a 5 hour buffer, then you're going to have all kinds of stuff now "in the public record" that maybe shouldn't be there. But also you now have 5 hours of more or less useless video that you have to store and account for (which costs $). > Mind showing your calculations? Keep in mind you don't have to store the videos in perpetuity. Limiting it to 180 days (with option to extend if the incident is being disputed) would suffice for most cases. It's actually less about the storage and more about the bandwidth to transfer that data to the storage location. Though the cost of the storage itself can still be an issue even if you're only retaining it for 90-180 days. There's a whole bunch of factors of course, but pick a reasonable bit rate (5-10 Mbps perhaps) for your recording and multiply it by the number of hours recorded per officer and the number of officers in an agency. Chicago PD has 12,000 police officers. I don't know how many of them work on a given day but let's say 10,000. Say each one records 5 hours per day based on the 5 hour buffer proposed here. 10,000 * 5 hours = 50,000 hours of footage per day 50,000 hours * 5 Mbps = 112.5 terabytes per day 112.5 terabytes uploaded in 24 hours = 10.4 Gbps (you need to be able to upload a full day's recording within 24 hours or you'll never catch up) Doing this quickly so hopefully my math isn't off but it's in line with what I remember. 10Gbps being uploaded 24/7 to the cloud. 20 petabytes stored at any moment if you're holding everything for 180 days. Sure, you can attack some of these numbers (not every officer will have a recordable interaction every day etc.) but I hope it gets the point across.
mattlondon 6y ago
Madness. "woops - accidentally shot someone for no reason. Better press save on the body camera so I can be prosecuted/sacked!"
- davidf560 6y ago
  Cameras now are starting to include technology where the camera is automatically activated as soon as the officer draws their weapon.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    It should be on as long as they're on the clock. Cashiers are under more scrutiny by their employers with security cameras than cops are.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> Why not buffer 5 hours by default? Body cameras are not marketed to police departments as instruments that keep cops honest. They're marketed as instruments that keep people from falsely accusing cops of crimes in court. Cops just want body cameras that they can turn on only when they feel like they might get a raw deal, and that's exactly what they bought.

throwaway894345 6y ago

Agreed. I assumed they buffered the whole work day such that following an incident, the investigating officers (and not the officer under investigation) would initiate the persistence of a particular incident.

Cancan82 6y ago

Because that would work actually work? We don’t actually want to have recordings, just say that we have them. But seriously, I would imagine the storage costs aren’t that terrible relative to the costs it would save in lawsuits for the police departments ?

davidf560 6y ago

> Why not buffer 5 hours by default? Because then you end up with recordings of things that you shouldn't have, like the officer using the restroom or a victim who has asked not to be recorded. Also, several minutes of buffer fits nicely in RAM. 5 hours would require a lot more RAM (making devices more expensive and thus harder to get deployed) or would require it to be written to flash disk which introduces new technical and legal issues. Additionally, recording 5 hours for each incident has one significant problem: every video that gets recorded has to be stored on device during the shift (not a big problem), but it also has to be offloaded and stored somewhere for archival. Do the math sometime on what kind of bandwidth and storage capacity a large agency like NYPD, LAPD, Chicago PD, etc. would need to upload several hours worth of officer-recorded video each day. I've done that math and the numbers are staggering.

gruez 6y ago
>Also, several minutes of buffer fits nicely in RAM. 5 hours would require a lot more RAM (making devices more expensive and thus harder to get deployed) or would require it to be written to flash disk which introduces new technical and legal issues. If you're concerned about writing potentially sensitive video to non-volatile storage, that can be solved via technical means. Just encrypt the video with an ephemeral key kept in memory, then store the encrypted video on non-volatile storage. You get best of both worlds. >I've done that math and the numbers are staggering. Mind showing your calculations? Keep in mind you don't have to store the videos in perpetuity. Limiting it to 180 days (with option to extend if the incident is being disputed) would suffice for most cases.
- davidf560 6y ago
  > If you're concerned about writing potentially sensitive video to non-volatile storage, that can be solved via technical means. Just encrypt the video with an ephemeral key kept in memory, then store the encrypted video on non-volatile storage. You get best of both worlds. Once you've recorded that video it's subject to FOIA requests and rules of evidence and all kinds of things like that. If your recording only includes the past minute or 2, you can be reasonably sure it doesn't include something it shouldn't (such as a victim who asked not to be recorded from an hour ago). If hitting that button commits a 5 hour buffer, then you're going to have all kinds of stuff now "in the public record" that maybe shouldn't be there. But also you now have 5 hours of more or less useless video that you have to store and account for (which costs $). > Mind showing your calculations? Keep in mind you don't have to store the videos in perpetuity. Limiting it to 180 days (with option to extend if the incident is being disputed) would suffice for most cases. It's actually less about the storage and more about the bandwidth to transfer that data to the storage location. Though the cost of the storage itself can still be an issue even if you're only retaining it for 90-180 days. There's a whole bunch of factors of course, but pick a reasonable bit rate (5-10 Mbps perhaps) for your recording and multiply it by the number of hours recorded per officer and the number of officers in an agency. Chicago PD has 12,000 police officers. I don't know how many of them work on a given day but let's say 10,000. Say each one records 5 hours per day based on the 5 hour buffer proposed here. 10,000 * 5 hours = 50,000 hours of footage per day 50,000 hours * 5 Mbps = 112.5 terabytes per day 112.5 terabytes uploaded in 24 hours = 10.4 Gbps (you need to be able to upload a full day's recording within 24 hours or you'll never catch up) Doing this quickly so hopefully my math isn't off but it's in line with what I remember. 10Gbps being uploaded 24/7 to the cloud. 20 petabytes stored at any moment if you're holding everything for 180 days. Sure, you can attack some of these numbers (not every officer will have a recordable interaction every day etc.) but I hope it gets the point across.

mattlondon 6y ago

Madness. "woops - accidentally shot someone for no reason. Better press save on the body camera so I can be prosecuted/sacked!"

davidf560 6y ago
Cameras now are starting to include technology where the camera is automatically activated as soon as the officer draws their weapon.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  It should be on as long as they're on the clock. Cashiers are under more scrutiny by their employers with security cameras than cops are.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> Why not buffer 5 hours by default? Body cameras are not marketed to police departments as instruments that keep cops honest. They're marketed as instruments that keep people from falsely accusing cops of crimes in court. Cops just want body cameras that they can turn on only when they feel like they might get a raw deal, and that's exactly what they bought.