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> Automation is not a good thing when it comes to credit reporting I only agree in the sense that there are no good things when it comes to consumer credit rep

by qppo 6y ago

> Automation is not a good thing when it comes to credit reporting I only agree in the sense that there are no good things when it comes to consumer credit reporting in the United States. This is just an example of systemic problems that can and should be solved by increased automation and removing humans from the process. There's not a ton of reasons that setting isDead = false in a table somewhere shouldn't "just work" other than too much human intervention in the processes of evaluating credit, reporting it to stake holders, and keeping information in sync.

marcinzm 6y ago
>There's not a ton of reasons that setting isDead = false in a table somewhere shouldn't "just work" other than too much human intervention in the processes of evaluating credit, reporting it to stake holders, and keeping information in sync. Someone has to verify that the person is in fact alive. And not, for example, their meth addicted grandson trying to get their social security checks. The difficulty isn't in setting the flag but in proving that the flag should be set.
- xwdv 6y ago
  There should be no flag, it should be a direct reference to a document proving a person is deceased.
- qppo 6y ago
  I get that, but the related issues are all from multiple independent parties trying to prove it without incentives to be accurate.
wyattpeak 6y ago
> This is just an example of systemic problems that can and should be solved by increased automation and removing humans from the process I've seen this pattern fail too many times to take it seriously anymore. Programmers (myself included) tend to rather drastically underestimate the likelihood that data can end up in an error state. Humans make more mistakes, to be sure, but they can also sensibly correct mistakes when they discover them (or have them reported). Automated systems make fewer errors but once they do, the problem can be nigh irresolvable. Just look at the endless trouble we read about every few weeks from people who get their Google accounts suspended. Those people are suspended incorrectly by automated systems, and the widely-responded best recourse is to be well-enough connected to be able to get a human who works for Google to bat for you. Machines are great for increasing scale, but they are terrible for handling edge cases. If edge cases are important to your system, you need humans deeply involved.
- qppo 6y ago
  More specifically here the humans in the process are the credit reporting agencies, which shouldn't exist at all and neither should systems to keep them up to date. I've also seen automation fail spectacularly because of inconceivable edge cases during design. Almost universally it's because the process being automated was originally human, and the conceptual model of an automated process is as a human that doesn't sleep. If there's friction to structurally altering the process so it can be automated - including restricting the input data and output conditions - then you're going to see spectacular failures. Automation isn't perfect but it really falls over when the stakeholders don't understand that it isn't perfect and the process needs to be altered for the project to succeed.
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    Why should there be no credit reporting agencies? Should everyone get the same mediocre credit limits/interest rates/etc instead of responsible borrowers being rewarded?
    - qppo 6y ago
      credit reporting agencies != credit reporting itself. An unaccountable private enterprise should not have access to my financial information, let alone three of them. I feel that's the domain of a governmental agency with far less access to information and is or far more regulated than the existing bureaus. > Should everyone get the same mediocre credit limits/interest rates/etc instead of responsible borrowers being rewarded No, but non-borrowers or low borrowers shouldn't be penalized when they do need credit. I'm not against credit reporting, I'm against the usage of my data against me by people that don't have an incentive to make sure its accurate and keep it secure.
      - syshum 6y ago
        Well you can accomplish you goal with out having the government service as a credit reporting agency. Which I absolutely do not trust the government to do. What you really need is data ownership rights, this would allow you to tell a credit reporting agency to forget you, the consequence of that of course would be that you likely would have a hard time getting credit at all but it would be your choice. Even today, for most data, you have given permission for the data to be shared with the credit reporting agencies, it is in the contract or agreement you sign when you open an account, take out a loan or consume other financial services. >>I'm against the usage of my data against me by people that don't have an incentive to make sure its accurate and keep it secure. I find it odd that you believe government would have incentive to make sure it is accurate and secure.
pmiller2 6y ago
> I only agree in the sense that there are no good things when it comes to consumer credit reporting in the United States. This is just an example of systemic problems that can and should be solved by increased automation and removing humans from the process. I don't understand your comment. You seem to be saying that we should increase the amount arbitrary, opaque decision making that happens in consumer credit reporting, by increasing automation. Am I reading that correctly? As for nothing being good about consumer credit reporting in the US, consider the old system what we have now replaced. It was all done on handshakes and personal references. That sounds really fair to poor people, doesn't it?

by qppo 6y ago

marcinzm 6y ago

>There's not a ton of reasons that setting isDead = false in a table somewhere shouldn't "just work" other than too much human intervention in the processes of evaluating credit, reporting it to stake holders, and keeping information in sync. Someone has to verify that the person is in fact alive. And not, for example, their meth addicted grandson trying to get their social security checks. The difficulty isn't in setting the flag but in proving that the flag should be set.

xwdv 6y ago
There should be no flag, it should be a direct reference to a document proving a person is deceased.
qppo 6y ago
I get that, but the related issues are all from multiple independent parties trying to prove it without incentives to be accurate.

wyattpeak 6y ago

> This is just an example of systemic problems that can and should be solved by increased automation and removing humans from the process I've seen this pattern fail too many times to take it seriously anymore. Programmers (myself included) tend to rather drastically underestimate the likelihood that data can end up in an error state. Humans make more mistakes, to be sure, but they can also sensibly correct mistakes when they discover them (or have them reported). Automated systems make fewer errors but once they do, the problem can be nigh irresolvable. Just look at the endless trouble we read about every few weeks from people who get their Google accounts suspended. Those people are suspended incorrectly by automated systems, and the widely-responded best recourse is to be well-enough connected to be able to get a human who works for Google to bat for you. Machines are great for increasing scale, but they are terrible for handling edge cases. If edge cases are important to your system, you need humans deeply involved.

qppo 6y ago
More specifically here the humans in the process are the credit reporting agencies, which shouldn't exist at all and neither should systems to keep them up to date. I've also seen automation fail spectacularly because of inconceivable edge cases during design. Almost universally it's because the process being automated was originally human, and the conceptual model of an automated process is as a human that doesn't sleep. If there's friction to structurally altering the process so it can be automated - including restricting the input data and output conditions - then you're going to see spectacular failures. Automation isn't perfect but it really falls over when the stakeholders don't understand that it isn't perfect and the process needs to be altered for the project to succeed.
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  Why should there be no credit reporting agencies? Should everyone get the same mediocre credit limits/interest rates/etc instead of responsible borrowers being rewarded?
  - qppo 6y ago
    credit reporting agencies != credit reporting itself. An unaccountable private enterprise should not have access to my financial information, let alone three of them. I feel that's the domain of a governmental agency with far less access to information and is or far more regulated than the existing bureaus. > Should everyone get the same mediocre credit limits/interest rates/etc instead of responsible borrowers being rewarded No, but non-borrowers or low borrowers shouldn't be penalized when they do need credit. I'm not against credit reporting, I'm against the usage of my data against me by people that don't have an incentive to make sure its accurate and keep it secure.
    - syshum 6y ago
      Well you can accomplish you goal with out having the government service as a credit reporting agency. Which I absolutely do not trust the government to do. What you really need is data ownership rights, this would allow you to tell a credit reporting agency to forget you, the consequence of that of course would be that you likely would have a hard time getting credit at all but it would be your choice. Even today, for most data, you have given permission for the data to be shared with the credit reporting agencies, it is in the contract or agreement you sign when you open an account, take out a loan or consume other financial services. >>I'm against the usage of my data against me by people that don't have an incentive to make sure its accurate and keep it secure. I find it odd that you believe government would have incentive to make sure it is accurate and secure.

pmiller2 6y ago

> I only agree in the sense that there are no good things when it comes to consumer credit reporting in the United States. This is just an example of systemic problems that can and should be solved by increased automation and removing humans from the process. I don't understand your comment. You seem to be saying that we should increase the amount arbitrary, opaque decision making that happens in consumer credit reporting, by increasing automation. Am I reading that correctly? As for nothing being good about consumer credit reporting in the US, consider the old system what we have now replaced. It was all done on handshakes and personal references. That sounds really fair to poor people, doesn't it?