5 ms·

Creative at what cost? The racism, sexism, and willful callousness of 4chan doesn't seem to be getting a lot of discussion in the latest round of media coverage

Creative at what cost? The racism, sexism, and willful callousness of 4chan doesn't seem to be getting a lot of discussion in the latest round of media coverage (outside of FOX News "HACKER-PEDOPHILES ON THE INTERNETS" hysteria). "TITS OR GTFO" (said to anyone presenting themselves as female), "be an hero" (encouragement to commit suicide)... maybe these could be considered jokes in bad taste. But the racist pics and rants about "niggers"? The griefing in Habbo? The spamming webcammers with insults until they cry? The mass harrassment of people by phone, e-mail, and IM? Encouraging people to abuse their girlfriends / sisters / women in general? Is any of that anything but feeding hate? Are communities that allow that (and make no mistake, 4chan allows anything that won't get it shut down) really ones we want to glorify? There's a price to pay with anarchy + anonymity. Yes, 4chan has produced, or popularized, things that are hilarious. But it's a bit like panning for gold in a river of shit.

vaksel 18y ago
Personally I don't mind the inappropriate jokes/posts, sure some are racist, some are sexist, some are just plain disgusting, but that's the whole point, in the age of political correctness its actually refreshing. Step outside your comfort bubble. And hey...if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to go there. Everyone likes to talk about freedoms we get in this country, yet these same people who wave the flag, have no problem with taking away other people's freedoms by forcing other people to behave in only the ways they approve of. And yes you should glorify sites like that, they let us keep the whole idea that you can have complete freedom on the net.
- helveticaman 18y ago
  Truer words were never spoken. I agree with the sites policy: ban child porn...and just about nothing else. Maybe I'm being closed-minded about child pornography, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. At any rate, vaksel, you're totally right. May I add that freedom is not about being able to say what others want you to say, but being able to say what they don't want you to say. (except for "fire!" in a crowded theater and the like")
- DaniFong 18y ago
  I think it's okay to be disgusted by what spoken of somewhere, and aware of the harm it can potentially cause, yet guard fiercely the ability to say it. I don't think freedom of speech should be axiomatic, though. Firstly, I take a realist stance -- it isn't treated that way by the world, there are some things you could say that would make your life much worse. Second, it seems that freedom of speech is a good heuristic due to how awful the alternative is: forcibly inflicting silence on people. But there are many degrees between speech and glorified, internationally accessible scum, and that's often what ends up on the internet -- I'm not sure it deserves much more glorification.
  - vaksel 18y ago
    You can be disgusted all you want, nobody is forcing you to visit that site though. Going to sites where you disagree completely with their philosophy is called trolling. You want a moral 4chan style site, go to christchan(real site btw)...thats the thing with the internet, sites that people want will always stay alive. I mean look at 4chan stats: "Current users: 29,989", that's almost 30,000 users using the site at the same time, so I guess there are plenty of people who don't mind the openness of the site. Freedom of speech IS axiomatic, in the bill of rights they didn't write..."freedom of speech, except when it disagrees with our beliefs", all the freedoms guaranteed by the bill of rights are not there to protect the opinions of the majority, they are there to protect the opinions of the minority. Sure its not treated this way in the real world, and that's where the hypocrisy lies. All these people being proud of "the freedoms we enjoy in America", are usually the same people who then go around and start telling everyone what they can or can't do. Internet really is the last standing bastion of actual freedoms. I can call you a little bitch when you act like one, and you won't run to the boss crying about getting your feelings hurt. No there aren't any degrees, when you start applying degrees and stop giving a shit because it doesn't apply to you that's when you start helping others to strip away your own rights. The key is to set precedent, and when you have one its much easier to go for the bigger fish. And here is a good quote for you: "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up." So you may disagree with whats being said, but you really need to take the approach of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." because if you don't, it won't be long before it affects you.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  One cannot simply escape the influence of 4chan by not going there. It is a cesspool, and the memes that breed there spread elsewhere. Do you think the players of Habbo wanted the influence of /b? And the violent culture there was shared by meankids.org when they started to frighten Kathy Sierra -- it was only a short jump from there to the death threats, and now they've inflicted harm. She will never be the same.
  - vaksel 18y ago
    maybe you should just move to China, I think their bill of rights will suit you better.
    - DaniFong 18y ago
      No, I'm certain it wouldn't.
    - adrianwaj 18y ago
      Can't say a bad word about 4Chan, only about people that say bad words about 4Chan.
  - blader 18y ago
    Freedom of speech guarantees that you will hear things you are offended by. There are some people who think they deserve to live in a world where they are never offended by anything, where everything is Serious Business. 4chan exists to demonstrate how futile and ludicrous people like that are, and appropriately enough those same people are the ones who are most offended by 4chan. It's beautiful in its own little twisted way.
nazgulnarsil 18y ago
4chan more closely approximates the male mind than anything else. I am sexist, racist, and callous, and if you claim not to be I don't believe you.
- kurtosis 18y ago
  What popular site approximates the female mind, in your view?
  - nazgulnarsil 18y ago
    this is the internet...women are only present in jpg form :p i'd have to ask my girlfriend, maybe ponystars.com?
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
peakok 18y ago
Creative at what cost? Politically correct at what cost ?
- JayNeely 18y ago
  I'm not making an argument for political correctness; there's a difference between censoring a community because its speech might offend someone, and moderating a community because it's trying to hurt someone.
notauser 18y ago
Having a magnet for all that junk helps keep it off the rest of the internet. In any case vitriol past a certain level is easy to laugh at. The stuff you need to be careful of is the insidious slant, where nothing is said that steps over the line but gradually the point of view worms it's way into the minds of the viewers.

vaksel 18y ago

Personally I don't mind the inappropriate jokes/posts, sure some are racist, some are sexist, some are just plain disgusting, but that's the whole point, in the age of political correctness its actually refreshing. Step outside your comfort bubble. And hey...if you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to go there. Everyone likes to talk about freedoms we get in this country, yet these same people who wave the flag, have no problem with taking away other people's freedoms by forcing other people to behave in only the ways they approve of. And yes you should glorify sites like that, they let us keep the whole idea that you can have complete freedom on the net.

helveticaman 18y ago
Truer words were never spoken. I agree with the sites policy: ban child porn...and just about nothing else. Maybe I'm being closed-minded about child pornography, but it's a risk I'm willing to take. At any rate, vaksel, you're totally right. May I add that freedom is not about being able to say what others want you to say, but being able to say what they don't want you to say. (except for "fire!" in a crowded theater and the like")
DaniFong 18y ago
I think it's okay to be disgusted by what spoken of somewhere, and aware of the harm it can potentially cause, yet guard fiercely the ability to say it. I don't think freedom of speech should be axiomatic, though. Firstly, I take a realist stance -- it isn't treated that way by the world, there are some things you could say that would make your life much worse. Second, it seems that freedom of speech is a good heuristic due to how awful the alternative is: forcibly inflicting silence on people. But there are many degrees between speech and glorified, internationally accessible scum, and that's often what ends up on the internet -- I'm not sure it deserves much more glorification.
- vaksel 18y ago
  You can be disgusted all you want, nobody is forcing you to visit that site though. Going to sites where you disagree completely with their philosophy is called trolling. You want a moral 4chan style site, go to christchan(real site btw)...thats the thing with the internet, sites that people want will always stay alive. I mean look at 4chan stats: "Current users: 29,989", that's almost 30,000 users using the site at the same time, so I guess there are plenty of people who don't mind the openness of the site. Freedom of speech IS axiomatic, in the bill of rights they didn't write..."freedom of speech, except when it disagrees with our beliefs", all the freedoms guaranteed by the bill of rights are not there to protect the opinions of the majority, they are there to protect the opinions of the minority. Sure its not treated this way in the real world, and that's where the hypocrisy lies. All these people being proud of "the freedoms we enjoy in America", are usually the same people who then go around and start telling everyone what they can or can't do. Internet really is the last standing bastion of actual freedoms. I can call you a little bitch when you act like one, and you won't run to the boss crying about getting your feelings hurt. No there aren't any degrees, when you start applying degrees and stop giving a shit because it doesn't apply to you that's when you start helping others to strip away your own rights. The key is to set precedent, and when you have one its much easier to go for the bigger fish. And here is a good quote for you: "In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up." So you may disagree with whats being said, but you really need to take the approach of "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." because if you don't, it won't be long before it affects you.
DaniFong 18y ago
One cannot simply escape the influence of 4chan by not going there. It is a cesspool, and the memes that breed there spread elsewhere. Do you think the players of Habbo wanted the influence of /b? And the violent culture there was shared by meankids.org when they started to frighten Kathy Sierra -- it was only a short jump from there to the death threats, and now they've inflicted harm. She will never be the same.
- vaksel 18y ago
  maybe you should just move to China, I think their bill of rights will suit you better.
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    No, I'm certain it wouldn't.
  - adrianwaj 18y ago
    Can't say a bad word about 4Chan, only about people that say bad words about 4Chan.
- blader 18y ago
  Freedom of speech guarantees that you will hear things you are offended by. There are some people who think they deserve to live in a world where they are never offended by anything, where everything is Serious Business. 4chan exists to demonstrate how futile and ludicrous people like that are, and appropriately enough those same people are the ones who are most offended by 4chan. It's beautiful in its own little twisted way.

nazgulnarsil 18y ago

4chan more closely approximates the male mind than anything else. I am sexist, racist, and callous, and if you claim not to be I don't believe you.

kurtosis 18y ago
What popular site approximates the female mind, in your view?
- nazgulnarsil 18y ago
  this is the internet...women are only present in jpg form :p i'd have to ask my girlfriend, maybe ponystars.com?
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]

peakok 18y ago

Creative at what cost? Politically correct at what cost ?

JayNeely 18y ago
I'm not making an argument for political correctness; there's a difference between censoring a community because its speech might offend someone, and moderating a community because it's trying to hurt someone.

notauser 18y ago

Having a magnet for all that junk helps keep it off the rest of the internet. In any case vitriol past a certain level is easy to laugh at. The stuff you need to be careful of is the insidious slant, where nothing is said that steps over the line but gradually the point of view worms it's way into the minds of the viewers.