9 ms·

I am curious to know why countries didn't buy large quantities of vitamin D and distribute them to all people? Wouldn't that be cheaper and more effective than

by pulse7 6y ago

I am curious to know why countries didn't buy large quantities of vitamin D and distribute them to all people? Wouldn't that be cheaper and more effective than complete lockdowns, full hospitals, etc.?

kevinskii 6y ago
Like a lot of things, vitamin D may have a slight effect on COVID mortality rates, but won't accomplish much by itself. Edit: The study linked below is pretty compelling. My comment appears to be incorrect.
- nwah1 6y ago
  The studies I saw, many of which were posted here, recorded dramatic impact on disease severity from Vitamin D alone. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096007602...
  - nateburt 6y ago
    Yes. The results of this pilot randomized controlled trial (the first for vitamin D and covid, as I understand it) from Spain were astounding. Patients were given vitamin D supplements during their hospital stays. Of those who received the supplements, only 1 of 50 (2%) required ICU care, while 13 of 26 (50%) of the patients who did not receive supplements required ICU care (and two died). 2% vs. 50%! Vitamin D supplementation is a low-risk, low-cost, side-effect-free (hard to OD) intervention. I see no reason governments should not encourage vitamin D supplementation (or, better yet, actively enable it via distribution of supplements as in the UK...at least during hospital stays). If it turns out that subsequent RCTs disprove the effects (despite the mountain of retrospective studies that show correlations in vitamin D levels and covid case trajectories), what harm will have been done?
pella 6y ago
"BORIS Johnson is set to follow the Scottish Government’s lead on giving free vitamin D to vulnerable groups following research suggesting it can reduce the worst symptoms of Covid-19." https://www.thenational.scot/news/18841488.boris-johnson-set-follow-nicola-sturgeons-policy-vitamin-d-supplies/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/18841488.boris-johnson-set...
hannob 6y ago
You're under the absurd illusion that a substance with some weak evidence (that may be just statistical noise and bad interpretation of data) would have a significant effect. If there's an effect of vitamin D it's likely very small.
- vinay427 6y ago
  With respect, and this is coming from just another measly user so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to disagree: I think your comment would be a lot more effective (and just as meaningful) without such an inflammatory tone in the first sentence. I think there are times and places to be more forceful, but an initial reply to a question presumed to be in good faith probably isn't one of them.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  There's actually a couple dozen studies on Vitamin D's effects on Covid-19: https://c19vitamind.com/ https://c19vitamind.com/ Some are retrospectives some are randomized clinical trials. Vitamin D has a major effect on the immune system that is well documented. OP is right. Even if supplementation reduced the death rate by only 25%, the cost-benefit analysis says that it would absolutely have made sense for countries to issue free Vitamin D and promote its use.
  - hannob 6y ago
    This lists 2 RCTs (related to Covid-19 + a few others for other infections). One is very small (16 people), the other is dubious, it seems to be the one that combines with hydroxychloroquine "standard of care". (I believe this was discussed on HN before.) It almost certainly won't reduce death rate by 25%. Very few medical interventions have an effect size that large.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076017300031 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09600... Vitamin D levels in summer months are associated with 25% lower mortality rates for all causes. Vitamin D almost certainly influences the immune system to fight off Covid in the same way it does the seasonal flu and other pneumonia. There's hundreds more studies on Vitamin D. Read up when you get a chance. Hell even if it was a 5% reduction we're talking an abundant vitamin that costs pennies to manufacture.
floatingatoll 6y ago
In a similar instance where one country (the United States) realized that distributing a specific medicine widely to all citizens would vastly improve public health, they discovered that — just as with anti-vaxxers/maskers — people will attribute medical issues that are outside of their control and have no known cause to something that is in their control, whether or not it's related. "In the past five years, 74 cities have voted to remove fluoride from their drinking water, despite thousands of studies showing it prevents cavities." (2018) So if the United States government attempted to distribute vitamin D to all people, a vocal minority of those people would respond "over my dead body" and immediately begin a nationwide campaign to prevent that distribution, including requesting emergency court orders to stop it. The US governments aren't typically what I would call "strong of will", and often fold on proven public health steps (such as masks) without trying to put up a fight. Perhaps it's different in other countries?
- drilldrive 6y ago
  I wouldn't trust anything a dentist has to offer, they only had their first empirical dentistry journal in the last decade.
13415 6y ago
Vitamin D can be bought without prescription and there is currently no shortage, so why should a country (government) distribute it? Anyone who wants some can buy some. Handing out free Vitamin D is like handing out free gym passes. It's not bad, but also not really a government's responsibility except for cases when people would benefit a lot but could not afford it at all.
- Hallucinaut 6y ago
  Same reason governments filter the water or remove lead from paint; just because knowledge is available doesn't mean all citizens can and will act on it, and sometimes lowering the barrier is all that's needed. Moreover, I'd argue older generations in particular are more susceptible to believing what the doctor says. Just having the research available and the vitamins on the shelf isn't going to have nearly the same uptake as a centralised push.
  - Angostura 6y ago
    Vitamin D is the only supplement that the NHS suggests that most people should take as a matter of course. But the logistics of getting it out to everyone would be tough. Easier to recommend it and let people buy it.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - rriepe 6y ago
    I think most places add it to milk. I supplement during the darkest six weeks of the year (which is starting very soon). It does seem like there could be a bigger seasonal push. Maybe not from the government but from somewhere.
    - pulse7 6y ago
      I think this would be the best solution: to add it to the milk products during the winter! Most people would get it, there would be (almost) no public discussion about it and the immune systems would be strengthened. People not buying milk could still buy it like today!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
im3w1l 6y ago
Maybe the easiest way to get vitamin d out there would be to politely ask manufacturers to fortify butter.
- meekrohprocess 6y ago
  You might run into the problem that it can be toxic at high doses. In my anecdotal experience, there seems to be a huge variance in the amount of butter that people eat, among people who regularly eat butter. Also, does it survive the heat of cooking?
throwaway122378 6y ago
Because the lockdowns aren’t about a virus
fitzie 6y ago
the experts followed the medical "standard of care". there was little discussion of what doctors were actually doing in out patient/ early treatment/prophylactic treatment. I don't think there was any studies about taking medicines or supplements for prevention. the drug studies ive looked at seem to be run by the drug companies and they aren't pushing vitamins and nutrition. what I've learned while figuring out what supplements I should be taking is that the entire recommended daily allowance is based on avoiding acute diseases like ricketss or scurvy, and not based on a model of what is optimal for our bodies. when you look at diseases by latitute or wonder why our annual influenza pandemic is during the winter months, it makes me wonder why there hasn't already been studies of supplements. it seems like a perfectly straightforward study.

by pulse7 6y ago

kevinskii 6y ago

Like a lot of things, vitamin D may have a slight effect on COVID mortality rates, but won't accomplish much by itself. Edit: The study linked below is pretty compelling. My comment appears to be incorrect.

nwah1 6y ago
The studies I saw, many of which were posted here, recorded dramatic impact on disease severity from Vitamin D alone. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960076020302764 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096007602...
- nateburt 6y ago
  Yes. The results of this pilot randomized controlled trial (the first for vitamin D and covid, as I understand it) from Spain were astounding. Patients were given vitamin D supplements during their hospital stays. Of those who received the supplements, only 1 of 50 (2%) required ICU care, while 13 of 26 (50%) of the patients who did not receive supplements required ICU care (and two died). 2% vs. 50%! Vitamin D supplementation is a low-risk, low-cost, side-effect-free (hard to OD) intervention. I see no reason governments should not encourage vitamin D supplementation (or, better yet, actively enable it via distribution of supplements as in the UK...at least during hospital stays). If it turns out that subsequent RCTs disprove the effects (despite the mountain of retrospective studies that show correlations in vitamin D levels and covid case trajectories), what harm will have been done?

pella 6y ago

"BORIS Johnson is set to follow the Scottish Government’s lead on giving free vitamin D to vulnerable groups following research suggesting it can reduce the worst symptoms of Covid-19." https://www.thenational.scot/news/18841488.boris-johnson-set-follow-nicola-sturgeons-policy-vitamin-d-supplies/ https://www.thenational.scot/news/18841488.boris-johnson-set...

hannob 6y ago

You're under the absurd illusion that a substance with some weak evidence (that may be just statistical noise and bad interpretation of data) would have a significant effect. If there's an effect of vitamin D it's likely very small.

vinay427 6y ago
With respect, and this is coming from just another measly user so take it with a grain of salt and feel free to disagree: I think your comment would be a lot more effective (and just as meaningful) without such an inflammatory tone in the first sentence. I think there are times and places to be more forceful, but an initial reply to a question presumed to be in good faith probably isn't one of them.
chrisco255 6y ago
There's actually a couple dozen studies on Vitamin D's effects on Covid-19: https://c19vitamind.com/ https://c19vitamind.com/ Some are retrospectives some are randomized clinical trials. Vitamin D has a major effect on the immune system that is well documented. OP is right. Even if supplementation reduced the death rate by only 25%, the cost-benefit analysis says that it would absolutely have made sense for countries to issue free Vitamin D and promote its use.
- hannob 6y ago
  This lists 2 RCTs (related to Covid-19 + a few others for other infections). One is very small (16 people), the other is dubious, it seems to be the one that combines with hydroxychloroquine "standard of care". (I believe this was discussed on HN before.) It almost certainly won't reduce death rate by 25%. Very few medical interventions have an effect size that large.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0960076017300031 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09600... Vitamin D levels in summer months are associated with 25% lower mortality rates for all causes. Vitamin D almost certainly influences the immune system to fight off Covid in the same way it does the seasonal flu and other pneumonia. There's hundreds more studies on Vitamin D. Read up when you get a chance. Hell even if it was a 5% reduction we're talking an abundant vitamin that costs pennies to manufacture.

floatingatoll 6y ago

In a similar instance where one country (the United States) realized that distributing a specific medicine widely to all citizens would vastly improve public health, they discovered that — just as with anti-vaxxers/maskers — people will attribute medical issues that are outside of their control and have no known cause to something that is in their control, whether or not it's related. "In the past five years, 74 cities have voted to remove fluoride from their drinking water, despite thousands of studies showing it prevents cavities." (2018) So if the United States government attempted to distribute vitamin D to all people, a vocal minority of those people would respond "over my dead body" and immediately begin a nationwide campaign to prevent that distribution, including requesting emergency court orders to stop it. The US governments aren't typically what I would call "strong of will", and often fold on proven public health steps (such as masks) without trying to put up a fight. Perhaps it's different in other countries?

drilldrive 6y ago
I wouldn't trust anything a dentist has to offer, they only had their first empirical dentistry journal in the last decade.

13415 6y ago

Vitamin D can be bought without prescription and there is currently no shortage, so why should a country (government) distribute it? Anyone who wants some can buy some. Handing out free Vitamin D is like handing out free gym passes. It's not bad, but also not really a government's responsibility except for cases when people would benefit a lot but could not afford it at all.

Hallucinaut 6y ago
Same reason governments filter the water or remove lead from paint; just because knowledge is available doesn't mean all citizens can and will act on it, and sometimes lowering the barrier is all that's needed. Moreover, I'd argue older generations in particular are more susceptible to believing what the doctor says. Just having the research available and the vitamins on the shelf isn't going to have nearly the same uptake as a centralised push.
- Angostura 6y ago
  Vitamin D is the only supplement that the NHS suggests that most people should take as a matter of course. But the logistics of getting it out to everyone would be tough. Easier to recommend it and let people buy it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- rriepe 6y ago
  I think most places add it to milk. I supplement during the darkest six weeks of the year (which is starting very soon). It does seem like there could be a bigger seasonal push. Maybe not from the government but from somewhere.
  - pulse7 6y ago
    I think this would be the best solution: to add it to the milk products during the winter! Most people would get it, there would be (almost) no public discussion about it and the immune systems would be strengthened. People not buying milk could still buy it like today!

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

im3w1l 6y ago

Maybe the easiest way to get vitamin d out there would be to politely ask manufacturers to fortify butter.

meekrohprocess 6y ago
You might run into the problem that it can be toxic at high doses. In my anecdotal experience, there seems to be a huge variance in the amount of butter that people eat, among people who regularly eat butter. Also, does it survive the heat of cooking?

throwaway122378 6y ago

Because the lockdowns aren’t about a virus

fitzie 6y ago

the experts followed the medical "standard of care". there was little discussion of what doctors were actually doing in out patient/ early treatment/prophylactic treatment. I don't think there was any studies about taking medicines or supplements for prevention. the drug studies ive looked at seem to be run by the drug companies and they aren't pushing vitamins and nutrition. what I've learned while figuring out what supplements I should be taking is that the entire recommended daily allowance is based on avoiding acute diseases like ricketss or scurvy, and not based on a model of what is optimal for our bodies. when you look at diseases by latitute or wonder why our annual influenza pandemic is during the winter months, it makes me wonder why there hasn't already been studies of supplements. it seems like a perfectly straightforward study.