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Emergency approval ≠ rubber-stamping. The “Western” vaccines are still going through proper (if accelerated) clinical trials. The Russian vaccine’s supposed eff

by klmr 6y ago

Emergency approval ≠ rubber-stamping. The “Western” vaccines are still going through proper (if accelerated) clinical trials. The Russian vaccine’s supposed efficacy and safety was announced before starting the phase III trials. That’s what’s rightly being mocked.

collyw 6y ago
The western one is being rushed through a lot quicker than usual. We can't possibly know about long term effects.
- klmr 6y ago
  We can’t know about long-term effects from the clinical trials. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t know anything about possible long-term effects — in fact, that’s categorically false. We know quite a lot about the underlying biology of these vaccines, and we have extensive data from animal testing. We can’t exclude all long-term effects but we know that they’re rather unlikely — mostly because there’s no plausible biological mechanism to cause them. In particular, based on our biological knowledge, we can categorically exclude claims from conspiracy theorists about the RNA likely being integrated into our genome: this just isn’t how any of this works, it’s fiction.
  - collyw 6y ago
    So what exactly do we know? From wikipedia: "mRNA vaccines are new, and before 2020, no mRNA technology platform had ever been authorized for human use, and thus there is the risk of unknown effects, both short and longer-term." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine The UK government is producing AI software to "to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs)" https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:506291-2020:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0 https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:506291-2020:TEXT:EN... But yes, label people questioning the rushed out vaccine as "conspiracy theorists".
    - klmr 6y ago
      > So what exactly do we know? A lot more than you’ll find easily digestible in a single Wikipedia article. > The UK government is producing AI software to "to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs)" The volume is expected to be high not because many actual, serious averse reactions are expected but because the vaccines are expected to be given to many people at once, and every potential averse reaction will be recorded. Most records in such ADR databases are causally unrelated to the vaccine, and merely occur coincidentally; and the vast (>99%) majority of the rest are occasional mild reactions. > But yes, label people questioning the rushed out vaccine as "conspiracy theorists". I’m not. I’m labelling specifically those people as conspiracy theorists who make up bullshit that isn’t based on actual biology but rather on complete fiction. In other words, who spew baseless lies. I’m all for robustly criticising these vaccines. But it has to happen scientifically, and by experts.
      - collyw 6y ago
        Ok, I'll ask again - what do we know? You clearly know nothing about the long term effects, but are happy to parrot an "it's all safe line". With an "experts says so" appeal to authority. This place is getting worse than reddit.
        klmr 6y ago
        > what do we know? I’ll reply again: a lot. You can’t possibly expect me to summarise the vast, complex state of the art knowledge of RNA biology for a lay person here — it literally fills books. At the very least ask more specific questions, I’ll be happy to answer them, if I can. > You clearly know nothing about the long term effects Wrong. I’m no expert on all aspects of RNA vaccines, but I am an expert on RNA biology. What I do know allows me to conclusively exclude the possibility of the RNA in vaccines incorporating into the host genome (because that notion is simply not coherent). I’m not parroting any line here.
        collyw 6y ago
        I didn't ask for a summary of RNA biology. I asked what we do we know about the long term effects of RNA vaccines? Preferably in humans. But as they the vaccines are new and haven't been authorized for humans I am skeptical that we can say anything conclusive. So far you haven't named one thing that we know. "Lots" isn't an answer. > What I do know allows me to conclusively exclude the possibility of the RNA in vaccines incorporating into the host genome (because that notion is simply not coherent). You are just using a strawman argument that some conspiracy theorists have come up with. I never suggested that would be the case.

by klmr 6y ago

collyw 6y ago

The western one is being rushed through a lot quicker than usual. We can't possibly know about long term effects.

klmr 6y ago
We can’t know about long-term effects from the clinical trials. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t know anything about possible long-term effects — in fact, that’s categorically false. We know quite a lot about the underlying biology of these vaccines, and we have extensive data from animal testing. We can’t exclude all long-term effects but we know that they’re rather unlikely — mostly because there’s no plausible biological mechanism to cause them. In particular, based on our biological knowledge, we can categorically exclude claims from conspiracy theorists about the RNA likely being integrated into our genome: this just isn’t how any of this works, it’s fiction.
- collyw 6y ago
  So what exactly do we know? From wikipedia: "mRNA vaccines are new, and before 2020, no mRNA technology platform had ever been authorized for human use, and thus there is the risk of unknown effects, both short and longer-term." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_vaccine The UK government is producing AI software to "to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs)" https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:506291-2020:TEXT:EN:HTML&src=0 https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:506291-2020:TEXT:EN... But yes, label people questioning the rushed out vaccine as "conspiracy theorists".
  - klmr 6y ago
    > So what exactly do we know? A lot more than you’ll find easily digestible in a single Wikipedia article. > The UK government is producing AI software to "to process the expected high volume of Covid-19 vaccine Adverse Drug Reaction (ADRs)" The volume is expected to be high not because many actual, serious averse reactions are expected but because the vaccines are expected to be given to many people at once, and every potential averse reaction will be recorded. Most records in such ADR databases are causally unrelated to the vaccine, and merely occur coincidentally; and the vast (>99%) majority of the rest are occasional mild reactions. > But yes, label people questioning the rushed out vaccine as "conspiracy theorists". I’m not. I’m labelling specifically those people as conspiracy theorists who make up bullshit that isn’t based on actual biology but rather on complete fiction. In other words, who spew baseless lies. I’m all for robustly criticising these vaccines. But it has to happen scientifically, and by experts.
    - collyw 6y ago
      Ok, I'll ask again - what do we know? You clearly know nothing about the long term effects, but are happy to parrot an "it's all safe line". With an "experts says so" appeal to authority. This place is getting worse than reddit.
      - klmr 6y ago
        > what do we know? I’ll reply again: a lot. You can’t possibly expect me to summarise the vast, complex state of the art knowledge of RNA biology for a lay person here — it literally fills books. At the very least ask more specific questions, I’ll be happy to answer them, if I can. > You clearly know nothing about the long term effects Wrong. I’m no expert on all aspects of RNA vaccines, but I am an expert on RNA biology. What I do know allows me to conclusively exclude the possibility of the RNA in vaccines incorporating into the host genome (because that notion is simply not coherent). I’m not parroting any line here.
        collyw 6y ago
        I didn't ask for a summary of RNA biology. I asked what we do we know about the long term effects of RNA vaccines? Preferably in humans. But as they the vaccines are new and haven't been authorized for humans I am skeptical that we can say anything conclusive. So far you haven't named one thing that we know. "Lots" isn't an answer. > What I do know allows me to conclusively exclude the possibility of the RNA in vaccines incorporating into the host genome (because that notion is simply not coherent). You are just using a strawman argument that some conspiracy theorists have come up with. I never suggested that would be the case.