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I understand charging a fee to the customer who is making the choice to call, but if a restaurant simply answers the phone - how is it acceptable that Yelp can

I understand charging a fee to the customer who is making the choice to call, but if a restaurant simply answers the phone - how is it acceptable that Yelp can charge them for doing so? Did they consent to this fee?

lotsofpulp 6y ago
> how is it acceptable that Yelp can charge them for doing so? Did they consent to this fee? In America, only the government is allowed to come up to you and say pay me this without you consenting. In all the businesses I’ve been involved with for over 2 decades, there are plenty of times someone sends an invoice for something you didn’t agree to, and you can always just ignore it.
- germinalphrase 6y ago
  That would be my expectation. I was unaware that these businesses had preexisting business relationship with Grubhub. Still shady.
yholio 6y ago
It's not Yelp who is charging them. They have a pre-existing business relation with Grubhub that generates leads for them for a fee, and, according to Yelp, allows Grubhub to charge them for any lead generated on any partner platform, which Yelp became in 2018. So now what used to be a free stream of customers is hijacked by Grubhub. I'm sure it hasn't crossed their minds when they signed up with Grubhub that in addition to new sales generated with them, they will also start paying commission on their existing clientele. A business owner trapped in a market where the Grubhub-Yelp duopoly is proeminent is basically fucked, and they will use their rent seeking revenues to further entrench their dominance by offering consumer discounts, fidelity options etc.
fma 6y ago
For the record, I dislike this practice...but to play devil's advocate (pls don't downvote for playing devil's advocate LOL) If I go to Google and I type in {name of my favorite restaurant}...and the first link on top is an ad placed by that restaurant, and below it is the actual restaurant's website...If I click on that ad, Google will charge that restaurant money, when it just redirects me to the website. In this case, GrubHub is claiming that they placed the phone number on Yelp, so they get money. I mean I think paying $8 (or whatever percentage of an order is) for that redirect is highway robbery given thin margins for a restaurant...
- jtsiskin 6y ago
  Whats the argument here? Most people would agree that what Google is doing is also immoral. But ignoring that, I don't see the equivalency - you are paying Google to prevent someone else from paying them more and showing up above you; in the Yelp case, your phone number already existed on Yelp, and someone is already on the page, yet GrubHub still adds their number.
  - fma 6y ago
    Just pointing out that it's typical for tech companies to employ dark pattern for monetization in instances where they are providing no value. Playing wack-a-mole won't help and we probably need some sort of legislation to prove value is being provided before being charged. (BTW I don't believe paying Google to prevent being above me is value ad. The intention of the searcher is known) Another example is how Google charges an app creator 30% if someone purchases a subscription. A charge that occurs every, single, month despite Google providing no value after the first month. What's an app owner to do? Push for Apple store...where also take 30% cut?
- gnicholas 6y ago
  There are two differences: 1: There is no way for the customer to tell that the phone number is not 100% organic. On Google, you can tell it's an ad (even if this is getting harder as Google disguises ads more and more). 2: Grubhub didn't place phone numbers on Yelp. Yelp has had phone numbers since day 1. If Grubhub puts menus or something on Yelp and someone uses that to place an order more efficiently, then they would be adding some value. That still wouldn't justify charging a premium without telling/asking either party, but I would at least agree there is some value-add there (but only for customers who actually look at the GrubHub-provided menu before calling in).
- zem 6y ago
  the google ad is clearly marked as an ad. the yelp phone number hijacking does not have "order via grubhub" anywhere.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

> how is it acceptable that Yelp can charge them for doing so? Did they consent to this fee? In America, only the government is allowed to come up to you and say pay me this without you consenting. In all the businesses I’ve been involved with for over 2 decades, there are plenty of times someone sends an invoice for something you didn’t agree to, and you can always just ignore it.

germinalphrase 6y ago
That would be my expectation. I was unaware that these businesses had preexisting business relationship with Grubhub. Still shady.

yholio 6y ago

It's not Yelp who is charging them. They have a pre-existing business relation with Grubhub that generates leads for them for a fee, and, according to Yelp, allows Grubhub to charge them for any lead generated on any partner platform, which Yelp became in 2018. So now what used to be a free stream of customers is hijacked by Grubhub. I'm sure it hasn't crossed their minds when they signed up with Grubhub that in addition to new sales generated with them, they will also start paying commission on their existing clientele. A business owner trapped in a market where the Grubhub-Yelp duopoly is proeminent is basically fucked, and they will use their rent seeking revenues to further entrench their dominance by offering consumer discounts, fidelity options etc.

fma 6y ago

For the record, I dislike this practice...but to play devil's advocate (pls don't downvote for playing devil's advocate LOL) If I go to Google and I type in {name of my favorite restaurant}...and the first link on top is an ad placed by that restaurant, and below it is the actual restaurant's website...If I click on that ad, Google will charge that restaurant money, when it just redirects me to the website. In this case, GrubHub is claiming that they placed the phone number on Yelp, so they get money. I mean I think paying $8 (or whatever percentage of an order is) for that redirect is highway robbery given thin margins for a restaurant...

jtsiskin 6y ago
Whats the argument here? Most people would agree that what Google is doing is also immoral. But ignoring that, I don't see the equivalency - you are paying Google to prevent someone else from paying them more and showing up above you; in the Yelp case, your phone number already existed on Yelp, and someone is already on the page, yet GrubHub still adds their number.
- fma 6y ago
  Just pointing out that it's typical for tech companies to employ dark pattern for monetization in instances where they are providing no value. Playing wack-a-mole won't help and we probably need some sort of legislation to prove value is being provided before being charged. (BTW I don't believe paying Google to prevent being above me is value ad. The intention of the searcher is known) Another example is how Google charges an app creator 30% if someone purchases a subscription. A charge that occurs every, single, month despite Google providing no value after the first month. What's an app owner to do? Push for Apple store...where also take 30% cut?
gnicholas 6y ago
There are two differences: 1: There is no way for the customer to tell that the phone number is not 100% organic. On Google, you can tell it's an ad (even if this is getting harder as Google disguises ads more and more). 2: Grubhub didn't place phone numbers on Yelp. Yelp has had phone numbers since day 1. If Grubhub puts menus or something on Yelp and someone uses that to place an order more efficiently, then they would be adding some value. That still wouldn't justify charging a premium without telling/asking either party, but I would at least agree there is some value-add there (but only for customers who actually look at the GrubHub-provided menu before calling in).
zem 6y ago
the google ad is clearly marked as an ad. the yelp phone number hijacking does not have "order via grubhub" anywhere.