11 ms·

What's with this rash of illegal drug articles? Am I the only one who still thinks it's morally wrong to do something that's illegal, except in certain very spe

by hugh3 16y ago

What's with this rash of illegal drug articles? Am I the only one who still thinks it's morally wrong to do something that's illegal, except in certain very special circumstances set out below? Let me explain what I mean. There are just laws, and there are unjust laws. Just laws should be obeyed. Unjust laws should be changed. If you think a given law is unjust, you should be campaigning to change it, not breaking it willy-nilly. The cost of people taking illegal drugs is huge, from the drain on police and prison resources to the creation of the organized crime rings which support the drug industry, and if you're taking illegal drugs you're responsible for all of that. If you are correct and drug laws are unjust then... well shit, changing them is an important task for you, and you should get cracking on that. Right now there's no great consensus over whether drug laws are just or unjust, but the majority wants to keep drugs illegal, even in California which recently failed to pass (by a huge majority) a legalization of marijuana. If you choose to live in a democratic society, why not obey the democratically ordained laws? Yes, there are circumstances when it is acceptable to break a law which you regard as unjust. One such circumstance is civil disobedience, where you break an unjust law with the intention of getting caught and punished so that you can bring attention to how unjust that law is, but if you're not (courageously) trying to get caught and punished you're not a civil disobedient. Another such circumstance is if the law is so horrendously unjust that following it will directly harm others, but that certainly doesn't apply in this case. In conclusion, if you want to take drugs then campaign for drug legalization. But don't go round breaking the democratically-devised law in the meantime.

rntz 16y ago
> If you choose to live in a democratic society, why not obey the democratically ordained laws? As opposed to choosing not to live in a democratic society? Is there some psychedelic-utopian society out there that's just like a standard first-world social-democratic country (high standard of living, good education and job opportunities, I can speak the language, etc, etc) except that drugs are legal by fiat?
kinship 16y ago
As someone dying from cancer, medical marijuana is the only thing that allows me to eat. Get a clue and stop bothering people.
michaelochurch 16y ago
I don't use any illegal drugs, but the drug laws are unjust and I don't think people who break them should be considered "morally wrong". It can be irresponsible, in that a parent should not be engaging in activity that can lead to jail time, but it's not "immoral" and these laws shouldn't exist in the first place. The "drain" you speak of is the cost of drug prohibition, not use.
anonLSD 16y ago
What do the views of the majority have to do with my moral compass? Drugs in particular are a case where the benefits tend to be personal and individual. I don't expect most people to get it, especially given how many people are conservative, religious, or just believe whatever they have been brought up to believe. When I'm deciding what is right and wrong, the law is generally the last thing on my mind. edit: As for "what's with the rash of...", I think there is a significant subset of hackers that are very interested in the workings of their brains, since we have typically been dependent on and defined by what our brains are capable of since childhood. In turn, there is a very powerful affinity between many of those who are fascinated with the brain, and psychedelic drugs.
jpr 16y ago
> If you think a given law is unjust, you should be campaigning to change it, not breaking it willy-nilly. If I were to heed that advice, I couldn't do anything productive. Heck, even as it is I'm worrying about stupid laws far too much, even though I'm not breaking any (that I know of), and it's taking time away from my productive behaviour. Your argument doesn't hold water in an environment where there are many, many stupid laws.
arethuza 16y ago
"if you're taking illegal drugs you're responsible for all of that" I'd argue that the legislators who made the consumption of these substances illegal are responsible for the current situation.
eof 16y ago
WHAT? I hope you are one of few that thinks it's morally wrong to do something that is illegal. Legality should reflect a subset of morality, not the other way around. The idea that you are morally obligated to follow unjust laws is absurd. Especially in a country where the laws are so obviously controlled far more by corporate interest rather than genuine democratic consent. I will continue smoking pot and any other drug I fancy and shaking my head in disbelief that anyone can believe marijuana in particular should be illegal.
pnathan 16y ago
I agree with you. But the conception of following the law is not a popular one in online culture. oh, to put it another way: geeks align hard towards chaotic good.
- killerdark 16y ago
  I dare you. I dare you, to not break the law in the location you are currently in, for a period of 24 hours. Unless you resort to not moving, you will be breaking a law (although that might be illegal as well). In most developed nations, you are dealing with a layer of international, national and local laws, with a history of several hundred years. Many of these old laws have not been revoked however, they are just no longer enforced. "Oh" you say now, "I mean I just follow the laws that are still enforced actively". To that I say, "so do I". But I might just have a different set of laws I consider enforced than you do. That doesn't make me more or less moral than you. We both break the letter of the law. And we both hold ourselves to our own moral standards.
cosgroveb 16y ago
You think it is immoral to do anything illegal? Any action that is not yielding completely to authority (unless in the context of very public "courageous" civil disobedience) is just plain wrong? Even if your actions don't harm anyone else? I can't really agree with that ethos because you're outsourcing your own moral compass to lawmakers. By your logic, having gay sex is immoral in jurisdictions where sodomy is criminalized. I definitely reject the notion that drug users are solely responsible for the high cost of enforcement when you look at the obscene and disproportionate amount of resources that are poured into the "War on Drugs." What has it ever truly accomplished? It's a failed policy. Yes we should change it, but society shares some of the blame with drug users for criminalizing something as harmless as pot use in the first place!
- hugh3 16y ago
  You think it is immoral to do anything illegal? Any action that is not yielding completely to authority (unless in the context of very public "courageous" civil disobedience) is just plain wrong? Even if your actions don't harm anyone else? I can't really agree with that ethos because you're outsourcing your own moral compass to lawmakers. By your logic, having gay sex is immoral in jurisdictions where sodomy is criminalized. If you live in a jurisdiction where sodomy is criminalized, then that is an intolerable situation which should not be allowed to stand. Even if you personally are smart enough to get away with it then undoubtedly there's some poor innocent who isn't going to get away with it. If you find yourself in a situaion like that you're morally obliged to either: a) Leave, or b) Actively campaign to change that law. If you choose to do it via civil disobedience then good luck to you... otherwise just get to work on campaigning.
  - cosgroveb 16y ago
    Try telling that to someone who actually has a lot to lose by taking either path. Say they are too poor to leave and in an authoritarian state. Or maybe they face retaliation at the workplace in an otherwise free country for their activism. Each person needs to make these decisions for themselves while you are getting all high and mighty and calling people immoral for not either: A) submitting to authority unquestioningly -or- B) risking everything to change the laws.
cromulent 16y ago
You are probably not the only person to use the current boundaries of the law as an outer limit of your morality, but as you say, many people do not. People's morals vary and I'm not sure how far you will get by advancing your own particular moral code on others on this forum. Most people would agree that in general, when living in a society, you should try to behave in a way that does not adversely affect that society. Is that the same thing as never breaking the law? People have different moralities, and they do not always closely track with the local laws where they live in all cases. Many people judge that their personal consumption of drugs does not adversely affect society in any significance, especially given that drug taking is common in society, and that there are legal drugs that are bad for society. Judging whether something is good or bad is fairly easy with something like murder. Judging whether it's OK for you to smoke some of the weed your friend grew is very different. Morality is more complex than "is it illegal?". The danger from the consideration that illegal acts are immoral is the reverse - legal acts are moral. I'm sure we can all think of legal acts that we would consider immoral. Is it immoral to smoke a Cuban cigar? Is it immoral to use a differently-sourced cigar the way Bill Clinton did? One is illegal, the other is not.
jng 16y ago
Ah, how sweet the naivete!
civilian 16y ago
On being a rational anarchist: "I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
drglenmomo 15y ago
The reason that drugs laws are not up for debate is because out "democratic" government subtly silences citizens who decide to speak up and express their zealous ideas pertaining to illegal narcotics from any perspective. Yours ideals will be silenced, tactics will be defeated, and openly publishing that you do not wish to conform to the drug laws of America, that includes all drugs not just simple cannibis legalization, you will be signing a social death warrant for yourself and family. People who do not put on the FAKE, politically correct "face" of our capitalistic society will be dealt with and discriminated (avoided) from "normal" Americans and their ideals required for survival. The farthest you can possibly get is to the position that ron paul is in right now, the political black sheep who votes comprise of stoner college students and ignorant druggies, or zealous liberals. Our government knows the majority of Americans want to end the war on drugs, legalize cannibis, and end this losing battle of attrition. They have seen the polls, statistics, opinions, letters from johnny from Columbus Ohio, and they DO NOT CARE. If you think this country is going to risk economical downfalls, inflation of the American dollar, admit wrongdoings not only to its people, but to the multiple countries that follow out ideals of drugs willingly, or more commonly through force, you are living in a "dream world." This country will not legalize drugs that will eventually convince drug users to turn their back on capitalism, because materialism, competitiveness, and politically correct ideals of America do not matter to them anymore because they rather get high. It is a beautiful pipe dream that our country unethically, in a myriad of immoral ways, rips away from our freedom, along with so many other supposed freedom's Americans use to have ( and i guess don't matter anymore because they were written hundreds of years ago), so politicians can get votes, smear ideals of a race, and many other reasons. IM DONE FUCK U USA FREE MY ASS

by hugh3 16y ago

rntz 16y ago

> If you choose to live in a democratic society, why not obey the democratically ordained laws? As opposed to choosing not to live in a democratic society? Is there some psychedelic-utopian society out there that's just like a standard first-world social-democratic country (high standard of living, good education and job opportunities, I can speak the language, etc, etc) except that drugs are legal by fiat?

kinship 16y ago

As someone dying from cancer, medical marijuana is the only thing that allows me to eat. Get a clue and stop bothering people.

michaelochurch 16y ago

I don't use any illegal drugs, but the drug laws are unjust and I don't think people who break them should be considered "morally wrong". It can be irresponsible, in that a parent should not be engaging in activity that can lead to jail time, but it's not "immoral" and these laws shouldn't exist in the first place. The "drain" you speak of is the cost of drug prohibition, not use.

anonLSD 16y ago

What do the views of the majority have to do with my moral compass? Drugs in particular are a case where the benefits tend to be personal and individual. I don't expect most people to get it, especially given how many people are conservative, religious, or just believe whatever they have been brought up to believe. When I'm deciding what is right and wrong, the law is generally the last thing on my mind. edit: As for "what's with the rash of...", I think there is a significant subset of hackers that are very interested in the workings of their brains, since we have typically been dependent on and defined by what our brains are capable of since childhood. In turn, there is a very powerful affinity between many of those who are fascinated with the brain, and psychedelic drugs.

jpr 16y ago

> If you think a given law is unjust, you should be campaigning to change it, not breaking it willy-nilly. If I were to heed that advice, I couldn't do anything productive. Heck, even as it is I'm worrying about stupid laws far too much, even though I'm not breaking any (that I know of), and it's taking time away from my productive behaviour. Your argument doesn't hold water in an environment where there are many, many stupid laws.

arethuza 16y ago

"if you're taking illegal drugs you're responsible for all of that" I'd argue that the legislators who made the consumption of these substances illegal are responsible for the current situation.

eof 16y ago

WHAT? I hope you are one of few that thinks it's morally wrong to do something that is illegal. Legality should reflect a subset of morality, not the other way around. The idea that you are morally obligated to follow unjust laws is absurd. Especially in a country where the laws are so obviously controlled far more by corporate interest rather than genuine democratic consent. I will continue smoking pot and any other drug I fancy and shaking my head in disbelief that anyone can believe marijuana in particular should be illegal.

pnathan 16y ago

I agree with you. But the conception of following the law is not a popular one in online culture. oh, to put it another way: geeks align hard towards chaotic good.

killerdark 16y ago
I dare you. I dare you, to not break the law in the location you are currently in, for a period of 24 hours. Unless you resort to not moving, you will be breaking a law (although that might be illegal as well). In most developed nations, you are dealing with a layer of international, national and local laws, with a history of several hundred years. Many of these old laws have not been revoked however, they are just no longer enforced. "Oh" you say now, "I mean I just follow the laws that are still enforced actively". To that I say, "so do I". But I might just have a different set of laws I consider enforced than you do. That doesn't make me more or less moral than you. We both break the letter of the law. And we both hold ourselves to our own moral standards.

cosgroveb 16y ago

You think it is immoral to do anything illegal? Any action that is not yielding completely to authority (unless in the context of very public "courageous" civil disobedience) is just plain wrong? Even if your actions don't harm anyone else? I can't really agree with that ethos because you're outsourcing your own moral compass to lawmakers. By your logic, having gay sex is immoral in jurisdictions where sodomy is criminalized. I definitely reject the notion that drug users are solely responsible for the high cost of enforcement when you look at the obscene and disproportionate amount of resources that are poured into the "War on Drugs." What has it ever truly accomplished? It's a failed policy. Yes we should change it, but society shares some of the blame with drug users for criminalizing something as harmless as pot use in the first place!

hugh3 16y ago
You think it is immoral to do anything illegal? Any action that is not yielding completely to authority (unless in the context of very public "courageous" civil disobedience) is just plain wrong? Even if your actions don't harm anyone else? I can't really agree with that ethos because you're outsourcing your own moral compass to lawmakers. By your logic, having gay sex is immoral in jurisdictions where sodomy is criminalized. If you live in a jurisdiction where sodomy is criminalized, then that is an intolerable situation which should not be allowed to stand. Even if you personally are smart enough to get away with it then undoubtedly there's some poor innocent who isn't going to get away with it. If you find yourself in a situaion like that you're morally obliged to either: a) Leave, or b) Actively campaign to change that law. If you choose to do it via civil disobedience then good luck to you... otherwise just get to work on campaigning.
- cosgroveb 16y ago
  Try telling that to someone who actually has a lot to lose by taking either path. Say they are too poor to leave and in an authoritarian state. Or maybe they face retaliation at the workplace in an otherwise free country for their activism. Each person needs to make these decisions for themselves while you are getting all high and mighty and calling people immoral for not either: A) submitting to authority unquestioningly -or- B) risking everything to change the laws.

cromulent 16y ago

You are probably not the only person to use the current boundaries of the law as an outer limit of your morality, but as you say, many people do not. People's morals vary and I'm not sure how far you will get by advancing your own particular moral code on others on this forum. Most people would agree that in general, when living in a society, you should try to behave in a way that does not adversely affect that society. Is that the same thing as never breaking the law? People have different moralities, and they do not always closely track with the local laws where they live in all cases. Many people judge that their personal consumption of drugs does not adversely affect society in any significance, especially given that drug taking is common in society, and that there are legal drugs that are bad for society. Judging whether something is good or bad is fairly easy with something like murder. Judging whether it's OK for you to smoke some of the weed your friend grew is very different. Morality is more complex than "is it illegal?". The danger from the consideration that illegal acts are immoral is the reverse - legal acts are moral. I'm sure we can all think of legal acts that we would consider immoral. Is it immoral to smoke a Cuban cigar? Is it immoral to use a differently-sourced cigar the way Bill Clinton did? One is illegal, the other is not.

jng 16y ago

Ah, how sweet the naivete!

civilian 16y ago

On being a rational anarchist: "I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."

drglenmomo 15y ago

The reason that drugs laws are not up for debate is because out "democratic" government subtly silences citizens who decide to speak up and express their zealous ideas pertaining to illegal narcotics from any perspective. Yours ideals will be silenced, tactics will be defeated, and openly publishing that you do not wish to conform to the drug laws of America, that includes all drugs not just simple cannibis legalization, you will be signing a social death warrant for yourself and family. People who do not put on the FAKE, politically correct "face" of our capitalistic society will be dealt with and discriminated (avoided) from "normal" Americans and their ideals required for survival. The farthest you can possibly get is to the position that ron paul is in right now, the political black sheep who votes comprise of stoner college students and ignorant druggies, or zealous liberals. Our government knows the majority of Americans want to end the war on drugs, legalize cannibis, and end this losing battle of attrition. They have seen the polls, statistics, opinions, letters from johnny from Columbus Ohio, and they DO NOT CARE. If you think this country is going to risk economical downfalls, inflation of the American dollar, admit wrongdoings not only to its people, but to the multiple countries that follow out ideals of drugs willingly, or more commonly through force, you are living in a "dream world." This country will not legalize drugs that will eventually convince drug users to turn their back on capitalism, because materialism, competitiveness, and politically correct ideals of America do not matter to them anymore because they rather get high. It is a beautiful pipe dream that our country unethically, in a myriad of immoral ways, rips away from our freedom, along with so many other supposed freedom's Americans use to have ( and i guess don't matter anymore because they were written hundreds of years ago), so politicians can get votes, smear ideals of a race, and many other reasons. IM DONE FUCK U USA FREE MY ASS