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Oh please. Just because there’s someone shouting this in every such thread doesn’t make it automatically true. You can set up a Mac without ever connecting it t

Oh please. Just because there’s someone shouting this in every such thread doesn’t make it automatically true. You can set up a Mac without ever connecting it to the internet and it will work perfectly. These are defensive measures to protect the general user base from malware. Yes, using HTTP in 2020 is worthy of scrutiny, but not using every such incident as a new piece of armour for this tedious narrative. Apple’s entire platform offering is based around curation. If you disagree with it, there are many other platforms out there you can elect to use. The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable.

jb1991 6y ago
> The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting. I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, and I think most Apple users behave this way. But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence.
- izacus 6y ago
  What a bizarre post considering all the pro-Apple smugness we see in Windows, Android and Linux topics. To the point where some of them are almost outright Apple ads. Almost as bizarre as loyalty to a single brand even when they stop treating you well.
  - sbuk 6y ago
    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; there is smugness from all sides. There does appear to be a an awful lot more coming from the FOSS community, but perhaps that cognitive bias on my part, id suggest that what you see is the same.
    - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
      The thing that confuses me is the name of this site. Start up workers became hackers then get to be smug because they overspent $$ on a shiny turd? I can understand smugness from those who contribute/maintain (what I understood by FOSS community), I don't understand the entitlement money brings.
    - stinos 6y ago
      This. I'm well aware some of the comments I leave on the net about certain products (be it applications, os, hardware, tools, literally anything) might come over as smugness (though I do my best to just state facts without putting an extra undertone in it) but at least I realize that; it's just a natural reaction when you see something you like getting bashed - especially if that bashing is not entirely just or even completely wrong. But it's baffling to see people not realizing they're being dragged down by cognitive error and it makes them blind. We're humans, we can be thaught to self-inspect, it's unfortunate this doesn't get done in education enough.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jb1991 6y ago
        > But it's baffling to see people not realizing they're being dragged down by cognitive error and it makes them blind. I misread this initially and I suspect others are as well based on the downvoting. But I think what you mean is that impulsive and/or unconditional bashing is the cognitive error here, right?
  - jb1991 6y ago
    But that’s just it: most Apple users do not feel that suddenly they are not being treated well.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  So? You mean that it's exhausting to be reminded of the negatives of a choice you make? The sentiment expressed is basically the same as in 'Your Computer Isn't Yours' mentioned in the article, which has already caused Apple to respond and enact change. That criticism directly caused real improvement. >I think most Apple users behave this way http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html ?
  - jb1991 6y ago
    > You mean that it's exhausting to be reminded of the negatives of a choice you make? No, that’s not it all what I meant, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. I meant it is exhausting to see the same fairly shallow criticisms shouted on a regular basis. It’s a different product with a different philosophy and people don’t have to buy their products, and it’s exhausting just to see the same things regurgitated over and over.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      From the side of a free software user, it's exhausting to see Apple claim over and over in its marketing that it values privacy and then to see its users on a site for tech-literate people parrot that marketing when it is clearly not true. Any time I see somebody fall for that, I will call them out. Any time after I call them out on that, if they say that reduction in privacy is to prevent the spread of malware, I will also call them out because Apple's malware track record in the mobile space is worse than its peers. I'm absolutely fine with people saying that their mobile processors are great because as far as I can tell, that's a true statement. It is the parroting of known false marketing claims that I will correct every single time.
      - jb1991 6y ago
        > Apple's malware track record in the mobile space is worse than its peers. You'll have to back that up with a meaningful citation because all the evidence I've seen is to the contrary. Here, I'll offer one example: > Android devices 50 times more infected with malware compared to iOS. https://www.pandasecurity.com/en/mediacenter/mobile-security/android-more-infected-than-ios/ https://www.pandasecurity.com/en/mediacenter/mobile-security...
- Tainnor 6y ago
  That's such a weird complaint. I own an Android device and use Google services and yet, I'm perfectly capable of criticising Google and their practices (criticism that, I might add, is least as frequent on this page as criticism of Apple - see AMP et al.). I expect that especially on a forum such as this one, people would be able to make informed choices and understand trade-offs. To say "I use Apple/Google/Microsoft devices because the trade-offs work best for me" is completely reasonable. What I don't think is reasonable is to perceive any criticism of a big corporation whose products you happen to be using as a personal attack.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    > I don't think is reasonable is to perceive any criticism of a big corporation whose products you happen to be using as a personal attack. I’m curious, what part of my wording suggested I was taking this as a personal attack? Things can be exhausting (annoying) without being personal.
    - Tainnor 6y ago
      I think it's mainly this part: > I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. This sounds to me as if you were saying "since I won't be switching away from Apple, I find criticism of Apple tiring because it won't change my mind". Which seemed to imply to me that you were taking Apple criticism as an invalidation of your personal beliefs / preferences. But I don't think it should be construed that way. It's just criticism of a company. I apologise if I misconstrued your position.
      - jb1991 6y ago
        No, it meant that just because I will never buy Windows does not mean I will go around bashing it. That’s why the next sentence said “I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't”.
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  Pardon my rather simplistic view. I'm a windows user primarily and linux user by choice. To my dismay, at my workplace I have to use MacOS because everyone uses iMacs which belong to the company and have no choice in that regard. This means MacOs is tied directly and non-trivially to my livelihood. My complaint of apple and what I percieve as shenanigans by Apple are due to that very fact that it is tied to my livelihood. Ofcourse you can say switch jobs because you dont like the brand the company uses and I will concede that as a somewhat valid point- but a reasonable person may look askance at the suggestion. We can agree it's a stupid reason to plunge myself into financial uncertainty. There is a non-zero chance that there are others in my position and who must exercise the right if not courtesy to complain. > But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence. There is a certain group which self identifies as fanboys which is their right and that group is not comprised of Windows or * nix users. This segment of fanboys I can assure is equally if not more vocal. Amusing if nothing else.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    Your "simplistic" view is perfectly valid, thanks for sharing. I agree that it is a bit amusing at times.
- totalZero 6y ago
  You really have no way of knowing that particular users are part of the "non-Apple crowd" unless they explicitly say so. I expect that many of the louder voices criticizing Apple come from Apple users themselves, because they have skin in the game.
  - jb1991 6y ago
    Fair enough. A lot of the criticism I’ve seen are people who claim themselves to be Linux users, so I guess that influenced my impression.
- wil421 6y ago
  It’s been like that forever. I can remember my friends dad had a Mac in the 90s. When I asked my dad he hated Apple and Macs with a passion about. He was an EE and hated the closed operating system. He was not even close to being alone either. It really was similar to what I hear today from a couple people who I know that refuse to use an iPhone or any apple product. The Apple hating passion from people who have never used them is very real and has been for decades.
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  > or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting Weird how I feel the same about all the pro-Apple comments in every Linux thread, specifically to the effect of: 'Unlike Linux, macOS just works. When I was younger I used to play with Linux too, but now I do actually work I just need shit to work and macOS does that', followed by a bunch of outdated, showing knows nothing about what they're talking about shit about PulseAudio. But when Apple completely and utterly screws up, to the point when you can't even launch non-Apple apps on a machine you paid thousands of dollars for, then people are all too sudden overreacting? Funny how that works. > I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. Good. And most FLOSS people don't want you to either. What is my problem is when people have crazy high expectations of FLOSS maintainers, but a trillion dollar company screwing up is filled under the category of 'shit happens' so to speak. Especially considering Apple's a commercial entity that DOES NOT and WILL NOT care about you or what you think and does not need anyone's advocacy as they have a massive marketing budget of their own. Aside from that, there is a feeling in the FLOSS community that Apple's conducting a war on general purpose computing as we know it, which is not an unreasonable thing to be fearful of considering their influence. > I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, I am glad to hear that, but there's an awful number of your fellow Applers who are doing exactly the opposite. > But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence. Right, which is totally not a thing for the Apple crowd, is that it?
  - jb1991 6y ago
    Fair enough, I can see your perspective. Thank you. Although to take my position that I don't plan to switch which OS I use and thus claim that an entire community of developers don't want me, that was a bit of a low blow.
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      > to take my position that I don't plan to switch which OS I use and thus claim that an entire community of developers don't want me I meant to say that we don't want you to switch to Linux if you're clearly happy with what you have already, not that we don't want [to have anything to do with] you, sorry if that wasn't clear.
gspr 6y ago
So your retort to "Apple doesn't believe that you should own your computer" is essentially "if you just don't connect it to the Internet, they can't control you"?
- zepto 6y ago
  If you you know what Apple believes, who else’s minds can you read?
  - gspr 6y ago
    I don't. I claim that if Apple does believe that, then OP's retort is bad.
    - zepto 6y ago
      Do you think Apple does believe that?
      - gspr 6y ago
        I haven't made up my opinion. Part of me thinks that if they had nothing to hide, they'd show their code.
        zepto 6y ago
        That doesn’t scale. If the solution was always just ‘show your code’, anyone could make up an allegation against them as a way to get them to reveal source code. Also - arguing that if you’ve done nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide, is a bizarre position to take in an argument about privacy. If we were to apply it to Apple, we would need to apply it to everyone. If someone actually produced evidence of Apple lying here, that would be a different matter. Nobody has produced any evidence at all.
        gspr 6y ago
        It's not a bizarre position to take when someone wants something to come live in your digital home. I'm not saying "Tim Cook has something to hide because he won't show us his private life". I'm saying "Apple wants to send a machine to come live in other people's homes; if they won't show the machine's insides, I wouldn't trust that they've got nothing to hide".
Tainnor 6y ago
> Yes, using HTTP in 2020 is worthy of scrutiny [...] This is the understatement of the year. It's one thing for Apple to "curate" their offerings and not allow you to do everything with their devices. It's quite another thing for them to pretend they're about "privacy" and then sending confidential information over the wire unencrypted. When businesses use macOS, they might be fine with the "curation" and "you're not allowed to do everything" aspects (that everybody was aware of), but certainly not with something like this.
andrewmutz 6y ago
> The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. ... Or Google, or Facebook, or Amazon. When a community has so much resentment about all these different companies, it says less about the companies and more about the community.
devwastaken 6y ago
It is true, please provide evidence otherwise. Do you know that the 'safety feature' phones home every single app you use clear as daylight on any network you're on? Your ISP can log what you're using, what time, where from. Apple is supposedly big on privacy, yet this was handled by many engineers who thought it was OK to do. That's called hypocrisy. You should be calling out Apple too. "Apples platform is based on curation" yep, here it is. That's the iphone developer Mantra. Except were talking macos. What you're saying is nobody can create and run applications without apples signature. That apple gets to control it all. Whatever happened to developer freedom? The ability to create and share? That disrespect software development, that disrespects it's origins, and instead of seeing how hypocritical that is you create excuses for the company that chokes the life out of it. These are terrible apologies for the world's richest company. You advocate against yourself by thinking "it's apples way or it's the highway". You willingly give up consumer control and make logical fallacies to ignore having to address the cognitive dissonance. This is why right to repair is being chosen by voters. If you won't be a responsible consumer then the others who have work to do have no choice but to force apples hand.

jb1991 6y ago

> The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting. I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, and I think most Apple users behave this way. But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence.

izacus 6y ago
What a bizarre post considering all the pro-Apple smugness we see in Windows, Android and Linux topics. To the point where some of them are almost outright Apple ads. Almost as bizarre as loyalty to a single brand even when they stop treating you well.
- sbuk 6y ago
  I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; there is smugness from all sides. There does appear to be a an awful lot more coming from the FOSS community, but perhaps that cognitive bias on my part, id suggest that what you see is the same.
  - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
    The thing that confuses me is the name of this site. Start up workers became hackers then get to be smug because they overspent $$ on a shiny turd? I can understand smugness from those who contribute/maintain (what I understood by FOSS community), I don't understand the entitlement money brings.
  - stinos 6y ago
    This. I'm well aware some of the comments I leave on the net about certain products (be it applications, os, hardware, tools, literally anything) might come over as smugness (though I do my best to just state facts without putting an extra undertone in it) but at least I realize that; it's just a natural reaction when you see something you like getting bashed - especially if that bashing is not entirely just or even completely wrong. But it's baffling to see people not realizing they're being dragged down by cognitive error and it makes them blind. We're humans, we can be thaught to self-inspect, it's unfortunate this doesn't get done in education enough.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jb1991 6y ago
      > But it's baffling to see people not realizing they're being dragged down by cognitive error and it makes them blind. I misread this initially and I suspect others are as well based on the downvoting. But I think what you mean is that impulsive and/or unconditional bashing is the cognitive error here, right?
- jb1991 6y ago
  But that’s just it: most Apple users do not feel that suddenly they are not being treated well.
ubercow13 6y ago
So? You mean that it's exhausting to be reminded of the negatives of a choice you make? The sentiment expressed is basically the same as in 'Your Computer Isn't Yours' mentioned in the article, which has already caused Apple to respond and enact change. That criticism directly caused real improvement. >I think most Apple users behave this way http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html http://www.paulgraham.com/mac.html ?
- jb1991 6y ago
  > You mean that it's exhausting to be reminded of the negatives of a choice you make? No, that’s not it all what I meant, and I’m sorry if it came across that way. I meant it is exhausting to see the same fairly shallow criticisms shouted on a regular basis. It’s a different product with a different philosophy and people don’t have to buy their products, and it’s exhausting just to see the same things regurgitated over and over.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    From the side of a free software user, it's exhausting to see Apple claim over and over in its marketing that it values privacy and then to see its users on a site for tech-literate people parrot that marketing when it is clearly not true. Any time I see somebody fall for that, I will call them out. Any time after I call them out on that, if they say that reduction in privacy is to prevent the spread of malware, I will also call them out because Apple's malware track record in the mobile space is worse than its peers. I'm absolutely fine with people saying that their mobile processors are great because as far as I can tell, that's a true statement. It is the parroting of known false marketing claims that I will correct every single time.
    - jb1991 6y ago
      > Apple's malware track record in the mobile space is worse than its peers. You'll have to back that up with a meaningful citation because all the evidence I've seen is to the contrary. Here, I'll offer one example: > Android devices 50 times more infected with malware compared to iOS. https://www.pandasecurity.com/en/mediacenter/mobile-security/android-more-infected-than-ios/ https://www.pandasecurity.com/en/mediacenter/mobile-security...
Tainnor 6y ago
That's such a weird complaint. I own an Android device and use Google services and yet, I'm perfectly capable of criticising Google and their practices (criticism that, I might add, is least as frequent on this page as criticism of Apple - see AMP et al.). I expect that especially on a forum such as this one, people would be able to make informed choices and understand trade-offs. To say "I use Apple/Google/Microsoft devices because the trade-offs work best for me" is completely reasonable. What I don't think is reasonable is to perceive any criticism of a big corporation whose products you happen to be using as a personal attack.
- jb1991 6y ago
  > I don't think is reasonable is to perceive any criticism of a big corporation whose products you happen to be using as a personal attack. I’m curious, what part of my wording suggested I was taking this as a personal attack? Things can be exhausting (annoying) without being personal.
  - Tainnor 6y ago
    I think it's mainly this part: > I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. This sounds to me as if you were saying "since I won't be switching away from Apple, I find criticism of Apple tiring because it won't change my mind". Which seemed to imply to me that you were taking Apple criticism as an invalidation of your personal beliefs / preferences. But I don't think it should be construed that way. It's just criticism of a company. I apologise if I misconstrued your position.
    - jb1991 6y ago
      No, it meant that just because I will never buy Windows does not mean I will go around bashing it. That’s why the next sentence said “I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't”.
vagrantJin 6y ago
Pardon my rather simplistic view. I'm a windows user primarily and linux user by choice. To my dismay, at my workplace I have to use MacOS because everyone uses iMacs which belong to the company and have no choice in that regard. This means MacOs is tied directly and non-trivially to my livelihood. My complaint of apple and what I percieve as shenanigans by Apple are due to that very fact that it is tied to my livelihood. Ofcourse you can say switch jobs because you dont like the brand the company uses and I will concede that as a somewhat valid point- but a reasonable person may look askance at the suggestion. We can agree it's a stupid reason to plunge myself into financial uncertainty. There is a non-zero chance that there are others in my position and who must exercise the right if not courtesy to complain. > But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence. There is a certain group which self identifies as fanboys which is their right and that group is not comprised of Windows or * nix users. This segment of fanboys I can assure is equally if not more vocal. Amusing if nothing else.
- jb1991 6y ago
  Your "simplistic" view is perfectly valid, thanks for sharing. I agree that it is a bit amusing at times.
totalZero 6y ago
You really have no way of knowing that particular users are part of the "non-Apple crowd" unless they explicitly say so. I expect that many of the louder voices criticizing Apple come from Apple users themselves, because they have skin in the game.
- jb1991 6y ago
  Fair enough. A lot of the criticism I’ve seen are people who claim themselves to be Linux users, so I guess that influenced my impression.
wil421 6y ago
It’s been like that forever. I can remember my friends dad had a Mac in the 90s. When I asked my dad he hated Apple and Macs with a passion about. He was an EE and hated the closed operating system. He was not even close to being alone either. It really was similar to what I hear today from a couple people who I know that refuse to use an iPhone or any apple product. The Apple hating passion from people who have never used them is very real and has been for decades.
AsyncAwait 6y ago
> or more specifically, not so much inexplicable (as actually I think it is quite predictable), but rather it is just exhausting Weird how I feel the same about all the pro-Apple comments in every Linux thread, specifically to the effect of: 'Unlike Linux, macOS just works. When I was younger I used to play with Linux too, but now I do actually work I just need shit to work and macOS does that', followed by a bunch of outdated, showing knows nothing about what they're talking about shit about PulseAudio. But when Apple completely and utterly screws up, to the point when you can't even launch non-Apple apps on a machine you paid thousands of dollars for, then people are all too sudden overreacting? Funny how that works. > I'm never going to buy a Windows computer. Period. I'm probably never going to switch to Linux either. Good. And most FLOSS people don't want you to either. What is my problem is when people have crazy high expectations of FLOSS maintainers, but a trillion dollar company screwing up is filled under the category of 'shit happens' so to speak. Especially considering Apple's a commercial entity that DOES NOT and WILL NOT care about you or what you think and does not need anyone's advocacy as they have a massive marketing budget of their own. Aside from that, there is a feeling in the FLOSS community that Apple's conducting a war on general purpose computing as we know it, which is not an unreasonable thing to be fearful of considering their influence. > I don't go around shouting my reasons why I won't, I am glad to hear that, but there's an awful number of your fellow Applers who are doing exactly the opposite. > But for a certain segment of the non-Apple crowd, yelling consistently about their opinions is an odd recurrence. Right, which is totally not a thing for the Apple crowd, is that it?
- jb1991 6y ago
  Fair enough, I can see your perspective. Thank you. Although to take my position that I don't plan to switch which OS I use and thus claim that an entire community of developers don't want me, that was a bit of a low blow.
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    > to take my position that I don't plan to switch which OS I use and thus claim that an entire community of developers don't want me I meant to say that we don't want you to switch to Linux if you're clearly happy with what you have already, not that we don't want [to have anything to do with] you, sorry if that wasn't clear.

gspr 6y ago

So your retort to "Apple doesn't believe that you should own your computer" is essentially "if you just don't connect it to the Internet, they can't control you"?

zepto 6y ago
If you you know what Apple believes, who else’s minds can you read?
- gspr 6y ago
  I don't. I claim that if Apple does believe that, then OP's retort is bad.
  - zepto 6y ago
    Do you think Apple does believe that?
    - gspr 6y ago
      I haven't made up my opinion. Part of me thinks that if they had nothing to hide, they'd show their code.
      - zepto 6y ago
        That doesn’t scale. If the solution was always just ‘show your code’, anyone could make up an allegation against them as a way to get them to reveal source code. Also - arguing that if you’ve done nothing wrong you should have nothing to hide, is a bizarre position to take in an argument about privacy. If we were to apply it to Apple, we would need to apply it to everyone. If someone actually produced evidence of Apple lying here, that would be a different matter. Nobody has produced any evidence at all.
        gspr 6y ago
        It's not a bizarre position to take when someone wants something to come live in your digital home. I'm not saying "Tim Cook has something to hide because he won't show us his private life". I'm saying "Apple wants to send a machine to come live in other people's homes; if they won't show the machine's insides, I wouldn't trust that they've got nothing to hide".

Tainnor 6y ago

> Yes, using HTTP in 2020 is worthy of scrutiny [...] This is the understatement of the year. It's one thing for Apple to "curate" their offerings and not allow you to do everything with their devices. It's quite another thing for them to pretend they're about "privacy" and then sending confidential information over the wire unencrypted. When businesses use macOS, they might be fine with the "curation" and "you're not allowed to do everything" aspects (that everybody was aware of), but certainly not with something like this.

andrewmutz 6y ago

> The bitterness that flies around whenever Apple comes up around here is almost inexplicable. ... Or Google, or Facebook, or Amazon. When a community has so much resentment about all these different companies, it says less about the companies and more about the community.

devwastaken 6y ago

It is true, please provide evidence otherwise. Do you know that the 'safety feature' phones home every single app you use clear as daylight on any network you're on? Your ISP can log what you're using, what time, where from. Apple is supposedly big on privacy, yet this was handled by many engineers who thought it was OK to do. That's called hypocrisy. You should be calling out Apple too. "Apples platform is based on curation" yep, here it is. That's the iphone developer Mantra. Except were talking macos. What you're saying is nobody can create and run applications without apples signature. That apple gets to control it all. Whatever happened to developer freedom? The ability to create and share? That disrespect software development, that disrespects it's origins, and instead of seeing how hypocritical that is you create excuses for the company that chokes the life out of it. These are terrible apologies for the world's richest company. You advocate against yourself by thinking "it's apples way or it's the highway". You willingly give up consumer control and make logical fallacies to ignore having to address the cognitive dissonance. This is why right to repair is being chosen by voters. If you won't be a responsible consumer then the others who have work to do have no choice but to force apples hand.