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Racism is not that obviously immoral behavior depicted in Disney movies when ugly people misjudge good people for frivolous reasons. Racism is when a group of p

by rixed 6y ago

Racism is not that obviously immoral behavior depicted in Disney movies when ugly people misjudge good people for frivolous reasons. Racism is when a group of people consider another group as inferior / less worthy for some reason conflated with their biology or culture (of which most often than not very little is actually known). Racism is exactly the thoughts you have just expressed. Upvoted for your honest contribution that sheds some light on what's racism in 2020's Europe, despite it makes me sad how easily one still associate the conduct of some members of a minority that's discriminated against with the genuine culture of that community.

nikolay 6y ago
If Bulgaria and Romania are racist, we beg you, please, take home our gypsies and treat them with respect. They've been integrating into Europe since the 15th century with no measurable success. The Communists tried that hard, too; they gave them free housing, many privileges like they could get into any university without exams. Yet, it would help if you watched documentaries of what they turned those apartment buildings into - the whole complex had to be destroyed as it was inhabitable. Again and again, a "gypsy" is not a matter of race or ethnicity as there are many well-integrated gypsies who distance themselves from the other gypsies, nobody calls them or considers them to be gypsies - being a gypsy is a matter of social irresponsibility, not following any laws, and having crime (mostly theft) as heritage. If you look into recent genetic studies, gypsies are descendants from the untouchables caste in India. The same thing they do in Bulgaria and Romania, they've been doing in India, and that's why they were persecuted and moved from Asia to Europe. They were not a different race back in India! The problem is this "heritage." Not all heritage should be cherished and preserved. As an extreme example, I will give you cannibalism. Gypsies teach their kids to pickpocket at an early age. It's not considered immoral. In fact, in gypsy culture, theft is only when you take away gold or silver. It's not only a way to make a living for them, but they also consider it an intellectual challenge - how to outsmart people. Another gypsy heritage is the bride marketplace. Women in the 21st century are sold like cattle. There are tons of documentaries on the subject. Should this heritage be preserved and celebrated, too? So, let's stop calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists! We're not. It's been 500 years already, and gypsies have killed more Bulgarians and Romanians than Bulgarians and Romanians have killed gypsies. Yes, often older people in the villages are getting tortured and killed over 5 euros. I can speak about Bulgaria, which has been a multicultural country way before many new Western democracies. We've welcomed thousands and thousands of Armenian refugees; we live in peace with Bulgarian Turks. We have many Jews - we saved all our Jews during WWII even if we were allies of Germany. We have Russians, Greek, Italians, Macedonians, and Serbians living in Bulgaria. During Communism, many Libyans, Lebanese, and Syrians came to study in Bulgaria, get married and stayed. I can't recall any racism and ethnicism against any of them - there's a different attitude only toward gypsies! Regarding the pocket-picking - I had a currency exchange business on the main street, and I've witnessed in the past many gypsy troupes "working" tourists. Of course, they wouldn't try to pickpocket from Bulgarians as when they see a gypsy, everybody grabs their bags and protects their belongings. With Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU, these troupes are now all over Europe. Back to when I had that business - often gypsies were coming to me offering me 20% of what they steal if I let them "work" in the store! And, please, let's not victimize them and point fingers at Bulgarians and Romanians - they are victims but of their own "cultural" heritage! The change can only change if kids are not allowed to be "trained" into being a "gypsy" (the social behavior) by their parents! I don't get why "racist heritage" could be bashed, but "theft heritage" cannot be!
- knuthsat 6y ago
  How can slavery be called integration? Having Roma slaves was a thing much longer after 15th century. The fact that Romani people successfully integrated in US might indicate that there exists a bigger cultural divide in Europe.
  - nikolay 6y ago
    Slaves of Bulgarians or slaves of the Ottomans? Because Bulgarians were Ottoman slaves, too! In fact, gypsies came to Bulgaria through the Ottoman Empire. And I cannot talk about Western Europe and how it treated gypsies as I've never studies it; I can only talk about Bulgaria and we never had slavery, so, can we quite extending Western guilts to Bulgaria?
- rixed 6y ago
  First of all, I'm not calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists. I'm calling _you_ racist. Secondly, I've tried my best not to bash you nor your countrymen. And I do not even disagree with many things you have said: indeed, some gypsies consider it fair game to steal from tourists, some have no respect for property, etc. Sure. The same could be said of many other discriminated minorities, and I'm pretty sure we've all heard and read the exact same complains that $Xs are just thieves, cannot be educated, will never give away their long heritage of misbehaviour, etc, etc, where $X is the minority of the day and place. The discriminated minority varies, but what does not vary is the false generalisation ("all $X are thieves"), the scapegoating ("$Xs are why the economy is bad"), and the reassuring feeling of superiority ("we have been nice to $Xs to no avail yet they were never nice to us"). This is exactly what racism is all about in my views. Listen, I'm not calling you a bad person for that. I totally understand that when pockets of poverty and antisocial behaviour do exist in one's country then one is upset about it. Just be aware that no minority is inherently bad; minorities have their own dynamic that depends upon many things (on top of which: having to live in a ghetto), but not upon the inner biology/heritage/wtv of any individuals. Do not delude yourself into thinking you would behave any different were you born in the same circumstances, into the same ghetto, etc. I do not know what have the previous regimes tried to end the discrimination and integrate gypsies, and I'm sad if that has failed. I'm certain though that ghettos are not improving anyone's situation, be it in Bulgaria or in France. Let's always try to think about the problem practically, to look for solutions/improvements not to look for revenge.
kazinator 6y ago
> biology or culture Sorry, no; racism is just about biology, by definition. Culture is not race. Discrimination based on culture has other terms like xenophobia. Discriminating against some culture may be justified. For instance, to some extent it is justified to discriminate against a culture that tolerates theft and vandalism. If you assume that someone with a certain physical appearance automatically belongs some specific culture, and then discriminate against them based on that assumption, that is then racism. The discriminating against that culture per se isn't racism, and not even necessarily wrong; it depends on the culture. Not all cultures are equally good.
- Viliam1234 6y ago
  > Sorry, no; racism is just about biology, by definition. Culture is not race. Unfortunately, some people have redefined "racism" to mean dislike of anything related to another ethnic group. Biology, culture, religion, whatever. I agree with you here. Blaming the culture is the opposite of blaming the biology. But the meaning of "racism" has expanded from "blaming biology" to, well, "noticing anything negative about anything". The only non-racist behavior is to say the differences don't exist at all, or blaming them 100% on oppression.
  - rixed 6y ago
    Racism is not about noticing patterns, it's about erroneous generalization and the prejudice they comes with it. In Bulgaria where gypsies live in poverty, many thieves are gypsies, therefore all gypsies are thieves, therefore not hiring gypsies. Compare with: many thieves are gypsies because poverty lead to antisocial behaviors.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]

by rixed 6y ago

nikolay 6y ago

If Bulgaria and Romania are racist, we beg you, please, take home our gypsies and treat them with respect. They've been integrating into Europe since the 15th century with no measurable success. The Communists tried that hard, too; they gave them free housing, many privileges like they could get into any university without exams. Yet, it would help if you watched documentaries of what they turned those apartment buildings into - the whole complex had to be destroyed as it was inhabitable. Again and again, a "gypsy" is not a matter of race or ethnicity as there are many well-integrated gypsies who distance themselves from the other gypsies, nobody calls them or considers them to be gypsies - being a gypsy is a matter of social irresponsibility, not following any laws, and having crime (mostly theft) as heritage. If you look into recent genetic studies, gypsies are descendants from the untouchables caste in India. The same thing they do in Bulgaria and Romania, they've been doing in India, and that's why they were persecuted and moved from Asia to Europe. They were not a different race back in India! The problem is this "heritage." Not all heritage should be cherished and preserved. As an extreme example, I will give you cannibalism. Gypsies teach their kids to pickpocket at an early age. It's not considered immoral. In fact, in gypsy culture, theft is only when you take away gold or silver. It's not only a way to make a living for them, but they also consider it an intellectual challenge - how to outsmart people. Another gypsy heritage is the bride marketplace. Women in the 21st century are sold like cattle. There are tons of documentaries on the subject. Should this heritage be preserved and celebrated, too? So, let's stop calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists! We're not. It's been 500 years already, and gypsies have killed more Bulgarians and Romanians than Bulgarians and Romanians have killed gypsies. Yes, often older people in the villages are getting tortured and killed over 5 euros. I can speak about Bulgaria, which has been a multicultural country way before many new Western democracies. We've welcomed thousands and thousands of Armenian refugees; we live in peace with Bulgarian Turks. We have many Jews - we saved all our Jews during WWII even if we were allies of Germany. We have Russians, Greek, Italians, Macedonians, and Serbians living in Bulgaria. During Communism, many Libyans, Lebanese, and Syrians came to study in Bulgaria, get married and stayed. I can't recall any racism and ethnicism against any of them - there's a different attitude only toward gypsies! Regarding the pocket-picking - I had a currency exchange business on the main street, and I've witnessed in the past many gypsy troupes "working" tourists. Of course, they wouldn't try to pickpocket from Bulgarians as when they see a gypsy, everybody grabs their bags and protects their belongings. With Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU, these troupes are now all over Europe. Back to when I had that business - often gypsies were coming to me offering me 20% of what they steal if I let them "work" in the store! And, please, let's not victimize them and point fingers at Bulgarians and Romanians - they are victims but of their own "cultural" heritage! The change can only change if kids are not allowed to be "trained" into being a "gypsy" (the social behavior) by their parents! I don't get why "racist heritage" could be bashed, but "theft heritage" cannot be!

knuthsat 6y ago
How can slavery be called integration? Having Roma slaves was a thing much longer after 15th century. The fact that Romani people successfully integrated in US might indicate that there exists a bigger cultural divide in Europe.
- nikolay 6y ago
  Slaves of Bulgarians or slaves of the Ottomans? Because Bulgarians were Ottoman slaves, too! In fact, gypsies came to Bulgaria through the Ottoman Empire. And I cannot talk about Western Europe and how it treated gypsies as I've never studies it; I can only talk about Bulgaria and we never had slavery, so, can we quite extending Western guilts to Bulgaria?
rixed 6y ago
First of all, I'm not calling Bulgarians and Romanians racists. I'm calling _you_ racist. Secondly, I've tried my best not to bash you nor your countrymen. And I do not even disagree with many things you have said: indeed, some gypsies consider it fair game to steal from tourists, some have no respect for property, etc. Sure. The same could be said of many other discriminated minorities, and I'm pretty sure we've all heard and read the exact same complains that $Xs are just thieves, cannot be educated, will never give away their long heritage of misbehaviour, etc, etc, where $X is the minority of the day and place. The discriminated minority varies, but what does not vary is the false generalisation ("all $X are thieves"), the scapegoating ("$Xs are why the economy is bad"), and the reassuring feeling of superiority ("we have been nice to $Xs to no avail yet they were never nice to us"). This is exactly what racism is all about in my views. Listen, I'm not calling you a bad person for that. I totally understand that when pockets of poverty and antisocial behaviour do exist in one's country then one is upset about it. Just be aware that no minority is inherently bad; minorities have their own dynamic that depends upon many things (on top of which: having to live in a ghetto), but not upon the inner biology/heritage/wtv of any individuals. Do not delude yourself into thinking you would behave any different were you born in the same circumstances, into the same ghetto, etc. I do not know what have the previous regimes tried to end the discrimination and integrate gypsies, and I'm sad if that has failed. I'm certain though that ghettos are not improving anyone's situation, be it in Bulgaria or in France. Let's always try to think about the problem practically, to look for solutions/improvements not to look for revenge.

kazinator 6y ago

> biology or culture Sorry, no; racism is just about biology, by definition. Culture is not race. Discrimination based on culture has other terms like xenophobia. Discriminating against some culture may be justified. For instance, to some extent it is justified to discriminate against a culture that tolerates theft and vandalism. If you assume that someone with a certain physical appearance automatically belongs some specific culture, and then discriminate against them based on that assumption, that is then racism. The discriminating against that culture per se isn't racism, and not even necessarily wrong; it depends on the culture. Not all cultures are equally good.

Viliam1234 6y ago
> Sorry, no; racism is just about biology, by definition. Culture is not race. Unfortunately, some people have redefined "racism" to mean dislike of anything related to another ethnic group. Biology, culture, religion, whatever. I agree with you here. Blaming the culture is the opposite of blaming the biology. But the meaning of "racism" has expanded from "blaming biology" to, well, "noticing anything negative about anything". The only non-racist behavior is to say the differences don't exist at all, or blaming them 100% on oppression.
- rixed 6y ago
  Racism is not about noticing patterns, it's about erroneous generalization and the prejudice they comes with it. In Bulgaria where gypsies live in poverty, many thieves are gypsies, therefore all gypsies are thieves, therefore not hiring gypsies. Compare with: many thieves are gypsies because poverty lead to antisocial behaviors.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]