7 ms·

OpenMoko UI Train Wreck (video)

23 points by nickb 18y ago

bprater 18y ago
This is a great illustration for folks that don't understand why the iPhone works so well. When you can compare it to a phone that has similar functionality, but fails miserable to measure up, you start to sense how important the small decisions are. It isn't good enough to have a list that scroll up-and-down when you drag your finger, but it has to do it at the right speed. It isn't good enough to toss up a keyboard when it is too small and the delete key is impossible to touch. I'm sure the OpenMoko team didn't have the resources of Apple, but to make great things you don't need to. You simply need someone obsessed with doing average things amazing.
- jrockway 18y ago
  There is no "OpenMoko team". If something doesn't work right in OpenMoko, it's your fault for not fixing it.
  - DaniFong 18y ago
    No, it isn't. You can just decide to use something else. There's zero buy-in unless the device is already the closest thing to what you want. When it isn't, the open source community supporting that device has a major problem.
  - thaumaturgy 18y ago
    OpenMoko was founded by a Taiwanese company and initial development efforts were handled by four people. | If something doesn't work right in OpenMoko, it's your fault for not fixing it. Ah, of course. Well, since I am responsible for all of OpenMoko's various problems, I am going to make the executive decision that it is beyond my ability to fix it, and abandon the project altogether. Your attitude may be correct, but it is not helpful. There's no reason to expect that someone who is knowledgeable in human interface design, or graphic design, or workflow, should also be capable of patching a system themselves, let alone dealing with the process of submitting patches. Whether you like it or not, criticism does drive development in user interface in open source projects. The programmers build something, users say, "this sucks" -- but the really helpful users say, "this sucks because ..." -- and then while a handful of people (like you) tell those users to get bent, other programmers go out and fix what the users are complaining about.
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    And what about hardware issues? The bezel that gets in the way. The slow processor. The pressure sensitive (vs. capacitive) screen. The idea of a completely open cell phone platform is nice in theory, but based on what I saw in this video they're going to have a hard time getting a critical mass of users/developers to shell out $400 for it and actually improve the thing.
    - alexfarran 18y ago
      The hardware is open source too.
    - mcxx 18y ago
      Don't underestimate open-source fans. I know a bunch of guys who just can't wait to get their hands dirty with this phone. I believe OpenMoko will be a success later on.
      - gaius 18y ago
        One word: Greenphone.
- rahulgarg 18y ago
  Well actually one of the reasons for the slowness in the video (disclaimer : dont own the phone, basing slowness on video) is because its processor is very slow. Its using a 400MHz ARM9 vs lets say 400MHz ARM11 on Nokia N95 or what is rumored to be 600MHz ARM11 in iPhone. edit : That should mean that the N95 has at least twice as powerful processor as freerunner and the iphone maybe even 3x faster processor. IMO the processor chosen was just plain wrong given the goal of producing a smartphone. They should have chosen a faster SoC and forgone the GPS and accelerometers.
  - silencio 18y ago
    at the cost of being even more expensive than what it is now, not to mention everything else that goes into making said n95 and iPhone smaller and sexier. uhhhh...no thanks :)
    - rahulgarg 18y ago
      That is why I said they should have dropped GPS and accelerometers.
      - silencio 18y ago
        It doesn't matter. Cause if they dropped GPS and accelerometers but upgraded other components, the price would have been high but you'd be missing out on two pretty useful/important features. Don't drop it, and it's still expensive.
  - st3fan 18y ago
    """Well actually one of the reasons for the slowness in the video is because its processor is very slow.""" My Apple ][ could scroll faster than that. Do you have any idea how many instructions are executed per second on a processor that ticks 400.000.000 times per second? Really, it's not a CPU speed issue. It's a bad software design issue.
- thaumaturgy 18y ago
  Successful open source projects tend to be very iterative. First version kinda sucks, second version still sucks but there's been some important changes, third version sucks a little less; some number of iterations later, hopefully, the project starts to become competitive with commercial offerings. Give it time. The scrolling and the keyboard will get fixed. ...One thing I thought was especially strange about the keyboard was the arrow keys (from the "More OpenMoko Train Wrecking" video, showing off the Qtopia interface). If you can interact directly with the screen, then I can't think of any reason to have arrow keys on the keyboard.
  - ajross 18y ago
    That's a property of all projects, really. Even most commercial products are awful in early releases. Apple's genius is with managing to hide most of these early disasters from their customers.
jrockway 18y ago
I like the comments on the article. "haha, let's laugh at those crazy 'open source' developers; Apple is cool because the ads convinced me so!!11!!". I will be laughing at them when they are forced to pay $500 for every piece of software because there is no Free software anymore. Instead of posting an "lol" comment, it would be more helpful to patch the problematic areas of the Openmoko codebase. That way every person in the world would theoretically benefit from the 10 minutes of their time. Sitting and watching the video is worthless, and I wish I could post a sarcastic video about that. Basically, as I mentioned above... if open source doesn't work for you, it's your fault for not fixing it. The developers will love you forever if you help them fix it. So will everyone else. So get off your ass and start helping, or at least stop criticizing the people that are donating their time to help keep software Free.
- dcurtis 18y ago
  That's the thing with open source... you don't have experts to fix the deficiencies because usually big companies gobble them up with high salaries. Saying "it's your fault for not fixing it" only applies to experts in the field, and 99% of people here are not experts in the fields to which you refer. This is why commercial software ends up with such great user experiences compared to open source software.
- silencio 18y ago
  The problem with that attitude is that the only customers that would be interested in the freerunner are the ones that know enough to fix the problems. It takes little effort for anyone to go "omg the UI sucks compared to the iPhone's!", it takes a lot more to actually fix all the UI problems, nevermind all the other issues. And honestly, let's think about the other open source projects out there right now, shall we? The FSF loves pointing out the community behind freerunner is also behind Linux..yeah, when has that ever been a flawless experience for anyone with an excellent UI to match? Never. Because to the users and the hackers and the developers, it doesn't matter that much. When you're comfortable installing the likes of arch or gentoo, the command line is your friend and it all makes sense and you know how to fix issues. If you've only spent your entire life using Windows and you don't know how to do much, it's unusable. I have tried SO many times to get some people to switch to newbie-friendly distros like Ubuntu because I was sick of maintaining their Windows machines, and it's still impossible for a lot of them. The people who care about the freerunner wouldn't care so much about the major gripes most users would have about the phone. That is why this will never stop being an extremely niche product. My two cents: Despite the feeling that I probably do have the know-how to fix some problems if I got a freerunner, I wouldn't buy a freerunner because I want a phone that just works with everything that I want with a minimal amount of hassle. Yay open source..I use Linux, but my main desktop will be OS X for convenience because Linux will never be able to match that. Just like how I got an iPhone..not because the ads told me they were cool..but because the phone just works and has everything I want. And in the very rare occasion I don't, and someone else hasn't come to the rescue, I could just open Xcode and hack something together. The freerunner can't even come close to it even if I hacked together a phone by myself with everything I want in it. I'm paying the price for convenience? Sure. But how much more time would I be paying in if I had a freerunner I could hack, but where nothing worked the way I wanted and it had no hardware I was interested in? Too much, especially some stuff that's totally out of my control and/or ability. Oh yeah, this is all assuming the developers will love you forever if you fix a problem for them. If they don't..well..I suppose you could fork. I'm trying not to criticize the people who are doing this, really, I love them for it. But if certain entities can get off their unjustified high horse(s) and get out of their fantasy worlds (cough fsf regarding the iPhone 3g cough) that would be nice.
halo 18y ago
This should be a bad hardware vs. good hardware debate, not a closed source vs. open source debate - people who try and turn these problems with an obviously poorly made product into an sort of 'open source debate' are missing the point.
- KirinDave 18y ago
  It's unfortunate that "but it is free!" is the number one feature bullet point, even if we wave all the software problems and assume great software for user experience.
aditya 18y ago
The problem with OpenMoko IMHO is too much hype and lack of direction. The idea to have an open phone, is great, in principle, but executing it is much harder. FIC is a hardware company and OpenMoko Inc. spun out of it, they made the hardware, and then hired a bunch of open source developers to make the software work on their somewhat broken hardware. As if that wasn't bad enough, they started drinking the kool-aid and spreading the hype about the OM phones being iPhone killers and gave their dev team _impossible_ goals. When v1 (the 1973) came out, it was pretty much useless but it sold out just because the community was so excited about it. Fast-forward to v2, still a lot of iphone-killer hype (like that idiotic fsf article) and no working software, OM changed directions multiple times and the Qtopia abortion is a result of that, and almost everyone is disappointed, but for the first time you can actually make calls (if you run a non-smartphone distro). The community is now beginning to form and take ownership of the fact that the OS won't go anywhere unless they make it. But the prohibitive price is probably preventing the community from reaching a critical mass.
- KirinDave 18y ago
  That idiotic FSF article was the reason I recorded the video. I was extremely upset at the article for exposing the OpenMoko project to too much expectation too early in the game. But it's not just that article, a lot of defensive open source fans are saying, "I am happy with my FreeRunner" and trying to look at it in a positive light. But when they talk about it to those uninitiated into the situation, it ends up as praise with faint condemnation. "I love my FreeRunner, and it's free! It's wink wink nudge nudge nod nod knowhatimean not ready for primetime, but I'm enjoying the device." And this subjective experience might be true, but it's extremely misleading to someone who wants to actually use a smartphone in day-to-day operation. The hardware is the most disappointing part to me. Everything else can be fixed. I really harped on the keyboard because I just can't envision how anyone looks at that thing and doesn't laugh, but it can be trivially fixed. The hardware problem for the planned revisions is not something we can wave a magic software wand at, though. I would have preferred it if they included a better touchscreen with hardware multi-touch and a flush glass surface and dropped the GPS.
c1sc0 18y ago
Isn't this a great example of a problem that needs to be solved? How can great UI design and open source be combined? I guess it's hard because great design means making (tough) choices for your users by limiting the feature set an thus the openness of the system.

23 points by nickb 18y ago

This is a great illustration for folks that don't understand why the iPhone works so well. When you can compare it to a phone that has similar functionality, but fails miserable to measure up, you start to sense how important the small decisions are. It isn't good enough to have a list that scroll up-and-down when you drag your finger, but it has to do it at the right speed. It isn't good enough to toss up a keyboard when it is too small and the delete key is impossible to touch. I'm sure the OpenMoko team didn't have the resources of Apple, but to make great things you don't need to. You simply need someone obsessed with doing average things amazing.

jrockway 18y ago
There is no "OpenMoko team". If something doesn't work right in OpenMoko, it's your fault for not fixing it.
- DaniFong 18y ago
  No, it isn't. You can just decide to use something else. There's zero buy-in unless the device is already the closest thing to what you want. When it isn't, the open source community supporting that device has a major problem.
- thaumaturgy 18y ago
  OpenMoko was founded by a Taiwanese company and initial development efforts were handled by four people. | If something doesn't work right in OpenMoko, it's your fault for not fixing it. Ah, of course. Well, since I am responsible for all of OpenMoko's various problems, I am going to make the executive decision that it is beyond my ability to fix it, and abandon the project altogether. Your attitude may be correct, but it is not helpful. There's no reason to expect that someone who is knowledgeable in human interface design, or graphic design, or workflow, should also be capable of patching a system themselves, let alone dealing with the process of submitting patches. Whether you like it or not, criticism does drive development in user interface in open source projects. The programmers build something, users say, "this sucks" -- but the really helpful users say, "this sucks because ..." -- and then while a handful of people (like you) tell those users to get bent, other programmers go out and fix what the users are complaining about.
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  And what about hardware issues? The bezel that gets in the way. The slow processor. The pressure sensitive (vs. capacitive) screen. The idea of a completely open cell phone platform is nice in theory, but based on what I saw in this video they're going to have a hard time getting a critical mass of users/developers to shell out $400 for it and actually improve the thing.
  - alexfarran 18y ago
    The hardware is open source too.
  - mcxx 18y ago
    Don't underestimate open-source fans. I know a bunch of guys who just can't wait to get their hands dirty with this phone. I believe OpenMoko will be a success later on.
    - gaius 18y ago
      One word: Greenphone.
rahulgarg 18y ago
Well actually one of the reasons for the slowness in the video (disclaimer : dont own the phone, basing slowness on video) is because its processor is very slow. Its using a 400MHz ARM9 vs lets say 400MHz ARM11 on Nokia N95 or what is rumored to be 600MHz ARM11 in iPhone. edit : That should mean that the N95 has at least twice as powerful processor as freerunner and the iphone maybe even 3x faster processor. IMO the processor chosen was just plain wrong given the goal of producing a smartphone. They should have chosen a faster SoC and forgone the GPS and accelerometers.
- silencio 18y ago
  at the cost of being even more expensive than what it is now, not to mention everything else that goes into making said n95 and iPhone smaller and sexier. uhhhh...no thanks :)
  - rahulgarg 18y ago
    That is why I said they should have dropped GPS and accelerometers.
    - silencio 18y ago
      It doesn't matter. Cause if they dropped GPS and accelerometers but upgraded other components, the price would have been high but you'd be missing out on two pretty useful/important features. Don't drop it, and it's still expensive.
- st3fan 18y ago
  """Well actually one of the reasons for the slowness in the video is because its processor is very slow.""" My Apple ][ could scroll faster than that. Do you have any idea how many instructions are executed per second on a processor that ticks 400.000.000 times per second? Really, it's not a CPU speed issue. It's a bad software design issue.
thaumaturgy 18y ago
Successful open source projects tend to be very iterative. First version kinda sucks, second version still sucks but there's been some important changes, third version sucks a little less; some number of iterations later, hopefully, the project starts to become competitive with commercial offerings. Give it time. The scrolling and the keyboard will get fixed. ...One thing I thought was especially strange about the keyboard was the arrow keys (from the "More OpenMoko Train Wrecking" video, showing off the Qtopia interface). If you can interact directly with the screen, then I can't think of any reason to have arrow keys on the keyboard.
- ajross 18y ago
  That's a property of all projects, really. Even most commercial products are awful in early releases. Apple's genius is with managing to hide most of these early disasters from their customers.

jrockway 18y ago

I like the comments on the article. "haha, let's laugh at those crazy 'open source' developers; Apple is cool because the ads convinced me so!!11!!". I will be laughing at them when they are forced to pay $500 for every piece of software because there is no Free software anymore. Instead of posting an "lol" comment, it would be more helpful to patch the problematic areas of the Openmoko codebase. That way every person in the world would theoretically benefit from the 10 minutes of their time. Sitting and watching the video is worthless, and I wish I could post a sarcastic video about that. Basically, as I mentioned above... if open source doesn't work for you, it's your fault for not fixing it. The developers will love you forever if you help them fix it. So will everyone else. So get off your ass and start helping, or at least stop criticizing the people that are donating their time to help keep software Free.

dcurtis 18y ago
That's the thing with open source... you don't have experts to fix the deficiencies because usually big companies gobble them up with high salaries. Saying "it's your fault for not fixing it" only applies to experts in the field, and 99% of people here are not experts in the fields to which you refer. This is why commercial software ends up with such great user experiences compared to open source software.
silencio 18y ago
The problem with that attitude is that the only customers that would be interested in the freerunner are the ones that know enough to fix the problems. It takes little effort for anyone to go "omg the UI sucks compared to the iPhone's!", it takes a lot more to actually fix all the UI problems, nevermind all the other issues. And honestly, let's think about the other open source projects out there right now, shall we? The FSF loves pointing out the community behind freerunner is also behind Linux..yeah, when has that ever been a flawless experience for anyone with an excellent UI to match? Never. Because to the users and the hackers and the developers, it doesn't matter that much. When you're comfortable installing the likes of arch or gentoo, the command line is your friend and it all makes sense and you know how to fix issues. If you've only spent your entire life using Windows and you don't know how to do much, it's unusable. I have tried SO many times to get some people to switch to newbie-friendly distros like Ubuntu because I was sick of maintaining their Windows machines, and it's still impossible for a lot of them. The people who care about the freerunner wouldn't care so much about the major gripes most users would have about the phone. That is why this will never stop being an extremely niche product. My two cents: Despite the feeling that I probably do have the know-how to fix some problems if I got a freerunner, I wouldn't buy a freerunner because I want a phone that just works with everything that I want with a minimal amount of hassle. Yay open source..I use Linux, but my main desktop will be OS X for convenience because Linux will never be able to match that. Just like how I got an iPhone..not because the ads told me they were cool..but because the phone just works and has everything I want. And in the very rare occasion I don't, and someone else hasn't come to the rescue, I could just open Xcode and hack something together. The freerunner can't even come close to it even if I hacked together a phone by myself with everything I want in it. I'm paying the price for convenience? Sure. But how much more time would I be paying in if I had a freerunner I could hack, but where nothing worked the way I wanted and it had no hardware I was interested in? Too much, especially some stuff that's totally out of my control and/or ability. Oh yeah, this is all assuming the developers will love you forever if you fix a problem for them. If they don't..well..I suppose you could fork. I'm trying not to criticize the people who are doing this, really, I love them for it. But if certain entities can get off their unjustified high horse(s) and get out of their fantasy worlds (cough fsf regarding the iPhone 3g cough) that would be nice.

halo 18y ago

This should be a bad hardware vs. good hardware debate, not a closed source vs. open source debate - people who try and turn these problems with an obviously poorly made product into an sort of 'open source debate' are missing the point.

KirinDave 18y ago
It's unfortunate that "but it is free!" is the number one feature bullet point, even if we wave all the software problems and assume great software for user experience.

aditya 18y ago

The problem with OpenMoko IMHO is too much hype and lack of direction. The idea to have an open phone, is great, in principle, but executing it is much harder. FIC is a hardware company and OpenMoko Inc. spun out of it, they made the hardware, and then hired a bunch of open source developers to make the software work on their somewhat broken hardware. As if that wasn't bad enough, they started drinking the kool-aid and spreading the hype about the OM phones being iPhone killers and gave their dev team _impossible_ goals. When v1 (the 1973) came out, it was pretty much useless but it sold out just because the community was so excited about it. Fast-forward to v2, still a lot of iphone-killer hype (like that idiotic fsf article) and no working software, OM changed directions multiple times and the Qtopia abortion is a result of that, and almost everyone is disappointed, but for the first time you can actually make calls (if you run a non-smartphone distro). The community is now beginning to form and take ownership of the fact that the OS won't go anywhere unless they make it. But the prohibitive price is probably preventing the community from reaching a critical mass.

KirinDave 18y ago
That idiotic FSF article was the reason I recorded the video. I was extremely upset at the article for exposing the OpenMoko project to too much expectation too early in the game. But it's not just that article, a lot of defensive open source fans are saying, "I am happy with my FreeRunner" and trying to look at it in a positive light. But when they talk about it to those uninitiated into the situation, it ends up as praise with faint condemnation. "I love my FreeRunner, and it's free! It's wink wink nudge nudge nod nod knowhatimean not ready for primetime, but I'm enjoying the device." And this subjective experience might be true, but it's extremely misleading to someone who wants to actually use a smartphone in day-to-day operation. The hardware is the most disappointing part to me. Everything else can be fixed. I really harped on the keyboard because I just can't envision how anyone looks at that thing and doesn't laugh, but it can be trivially fixed. The hardware problem for the planned revisions is not something we can wave a magic software wand at, though. I would have preferred it if they included a better touchscreen with hardware multi-touch and a flush glass surface and dropped the GPS.

c1sc0 18y ago

Isn't this a great example of a problem that needs to be solved? How can great UI design and open source be combined? I guess it's hard because great design means making (tough) choices for your users by limiting the feature set an thus the openness of the system.