5 ms·

Hehehe, Tulsa Oklahoma. I wonder how many of them visited before applying. I don't mean to knock the city, but it is a very different place, and SF residents m

Hehehe, Tulsa Oklahoma. I wonder how many of them visited before applying. I don't mean to knock the city, but it is a very different place, and SF residents might chafe at the lack of interesting nature in the surrounding area. Probably the closest large park-ish area would be the Ozarks over in Arkansas. It's a lovely forest, but still about a 2.5-hour drive away. And OK's state highways are absolutely littered with aggressive speed traps.

throwawaygh 6y ago
These programs existed for decades before the pandemic. They never caught on for a very simple reason: CoL is literally the only advantage. $10K is nothing compared to the uphill climb of career progression that inevitably comes with remote work. Hell, $10K literally less than my first relocation package and I was moving a single bedroom. TL;DR: no one moves to SFBA because it's the best CoL vs salary choice, and there are some great sweet spots for tech before places like Tulsa (eg Portland, KC, even Seattle) CoL is the real attraction, but if you don't care about the dearth of cultural amenities, why choose a mid-sized city in a state that doesn't have any non-Catholic private schools worth paying for and couldn't even keep all of its public schools open 5 days a week in pre-pandemic times? If you don't need good schools or cultural institutions, why not instead choose New Hampshire? Or rural Oregon? Or, as you pointed out, the Ozarks? Heck, IMO, Branson and Springfield have better public schools than Tulsa suburbs, and Branson even has more theater than Tulsa if you're ok with genuinely 100% world-class performers doing kitsch on faux river boats.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  Agreed that Branson is actually a nice place to live. Due to the tourism, it is rather loaded with good restaurants and entertainment like museums, Imax theater, camping, hiking, etc. Though you do have to deal with a lot of tourists and traffic during the summer busy season. Some areas in Branson even have symetric fiber, I believe even gigabit. You could probably get a nice house in a gated community on the golf course for $500k+.
- mxcrossb 6y ago
  > We've had over a thousand applicants just in the last two weeks alone. Over half of them are from California, many from the Bay Area If the program isn’t new, I wonder what the total numbers are like since covid started. The article only mentioned 1000 people over two weeks (from all over the country)
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    I have to imagine there have been A LOT more than 1000 Tulsa residents who left Tulsa for tech jobs in greener pastures over the last 20+ years. This isn't an infusion of talent. It's probably a teeny tiny fraction of the brain drain returning to test the waters or, more likely, just to leverage grandparents for some free daycare while pandemic is on. And this is the high-point of interest.
- pqoek 6y ago
  > non-Catholic private schools what's wrong with public schools?
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    In the case of Oklahoma, the phrase immediately following what you quoted: > couldn't even keep all of its public schools open 5 days a week in pre-pandemic times
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    The persistent underfunding. Everyone who can afford to send their children to private school will do so because OK public schools are plain awful. Of course it's impossible to raise taxes to attract any sort of decent teacher or buy equipment or even paint because it's Oklahoma, no one is using public school anyway, so why fund it. But what's wrong with Catholic school? They have a tradition of being quite secular and open to different worldviews.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      > But what's wrong with Catholic school? They have a tradition of being quite secular and open to different worldviews. I went to Catholic school, and politically, they certainly seem to be for restricting other people’s freedoms (see abstinence only sex education, gay marriage, and abortion). My whole sex education at the age of 14 or so was a slideshow of genital herpes or sores and “don’t do it”. There’s also the whole decades long organizational support of child molestation issue that one might want to avoid supporting.
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        At least the official position of the Catholic Church isn't biblical literalism, so you won't get the A-Beka crap. The Presbyterians down here in my village in Alabama inflict the stuff on the poor kids. I grew up Catholic in a tradition where the social responsibility was taken seriously (also see here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpingwerk https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpingwerk). We didn't have the abstinence-only nonsense either, that must be particular to certain regions in the US. BTW, the Catholic position is that marriage is a sacrament that the couple administers to each other (the only sacrament where a priest is not needed), and, well, sex is complicated, and all sorts of Reddit drama happens when FWBs catch feelings & so on. This was actually how the subject was treated in school. The recent child abuse revelations are disappointing. I always said that child abuse isn't confined to catholics, but the hierarchy at least provides some oversight that you don't have in megachurches, but it's clear that that did not happen, it was a total failure up to the Pope.
- Bahamut 6y ago
  I actually moved to the Bay Area because long term it has the best compensation when accounting for cost of living that I calculated for net take home pay unless I wanted to move over to NYC fintech (definitely don’t want to). While $300k+ is a pipe dream in most of the US, it’s attainable in the Bay Area working for a big tech company as a modest goal.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    Absolutely true. Really. Just don't have 4 kids :)
burnthrow 6y ago
Tulsa's pretty rad. The Ozarks are in Oklahoma too, actually. Sorry you got a ticket: Pay attention and slow down.
- meekrohprocess 6y ago
  Oh, I only got warnings. Including some for going under the speed limit. The state is full of small-town cops who want to throw their weight around, but they're harmless if you play their game and (sadly) if you're the right color. That's another important consideration for potential applicants.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    if you're the right color. That's another important consideration for potential applicants God, yes. I have colleagues who will not leave the interstate when driving through certain states.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Or buy a radar detector. I actually got a warning instead of a ticket from a cop in Texas while I was going through a construction zone. Great times.
- peterwoerner 6y ago
  The south in general has a history of funding their local governments through traffic tickets.
eyberg 6y ago
The Ozarks extend well into Missouri as well (also a few hours drive). Ozark the Netflix series even though filmed in Georgia? takes place ~4.5 hrs drive from Tulsa. Besides the forest it's known for all the rivers that people float down.
- jjeaff 6y ago
  The Ozarks is primarily Missouri and Arkansas. Really only a small area in far east oklahoma is part of the Ozarks.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- meekrohprocess 6y ago
  Yeah, they're huge. I love the place. You can travel for miles and miles through remote forest, then pass through a main street that looks like the center of any other large town. You can get lost following the meandering pavement, or get in trouble following a dirt track too far. Dirt bikes share the roads with sport car rallies (and logging trucks). Expansive overlooks appear out of nowhere, and you can find backpacking trails by looking for cairns along the roads. There are equestrian camp sites. It's not really possible to describe in a short text comment.
HarryHirsch 6y ago
I wonder how many of them visited before applying The program will actually pay for a tour of Tulsa for potential recipients who have no connection to the city. That's what the FAQ page says. When you apply they also ask about your connection to Tulsa (friends, family), so to their credit they do take into account that the place may not be for everyone. They have looked into these difficulties, one should give them some credit.
- meekrohprocess 6y ago
  Oh, for sure - we can debate whether it's misguided or not, but it's definitely nice that the city is putting so much effort into this sort of outreach, and they seem to be serious about the program. People poo-poo the $10k number, but that must have been hard to sell to a city council. I'm more curious about how many of the applications are serious, and how many are reactive to the current situation. There's nothing wrong with seeking stability over excitement, but I sort of worry about people envisioning the whole "Great Plains" idyll.
dehrmann 6y ago
I send these offers to a friend as a joke. The only one I was serious about was Helsinki.

throwawaygh 6y ago

These programs existed for decades before the pandemic. They never caught on for a very simple reason: CoL is literally the only advantage. $10K is nothing compared to the uphill climb of career progression that inevitably comes with remote work. Hell, $10K literally less than my first relocation package and I was moving a single bedroom. TL;DR: no one moves to SFBA because it's the best CoL vs salary choice, and there are some great sweet spots for tech before places like Tulsa (eg Portland, KC, even Seattle) CoL is the real attraction, but if you don't care about the dearth of cultural amenities, why choose a mid-sized city in a state that doesn't have any non-Catholic private schools worth paying for and couldn't even keep all of its public schools open 5 days a week in pre-pandemic times? If you don't need good schools or cultural institutions, why not instead choose New Hampshire? Or rural Oregon? Or, as you pointed out, the Ozarks? Heck, IMO, Branson and Springfield have better public schools than Tulsa suburbs, and Branson even has more theater than Tulsa if you're ok with genuinely 100% world-class performers doing kitsch on faux river boats.

jjeaff 6y ago
Agreed that Branson is actually a nice place to live. Due to the tourism, it is rather loaded with good restaurants and entertainment like museums, Imax theater, camping, hiking, etc. Though you do have to deal with a lot of tourists and traffic during the summer busy season. Some areas in Branson even have symetric fiber, I believe even gigabit. You could probably get a nice house in a gated community on the golf course for $500k+.
mxcrossb 6y ago
> We've had over a thousand applicants just in the last two weeks alone. Over half of them are from California, many from the Bay Area If the program isn’t new, I wonder what the total numbers are like since covid started. The article only mentioned 1000 people over two weeks (from all over the country)
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  I have to imagine there have been A LOT more than 1000 Tulsa residents who left Tulsa for tech jobs in greener pastures over the last 20+ years. This isn't an infusion of talent. It's probably a teeny tiny fraction of the brain drain returning to test the waters or, more likely, just to leverage grandparents for some free daycare while pandemic is on. And this is the high-point of interest.
pqoek 6y ago
> non-Catholic private schools what's wrong with public schools?
- jcranmer 6y ago
  In the case of Oklahoma, the phrase immediately following what you quoted: > couldn't even keep all of its public schools open 5 days a week in pre-pandemic times
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  The persistent underfunding. Everyone who can afford to send their children to private school will do so because OK public schools are plain awful. Of course it's impossible to raise taxes to attract any sort of decent teacher or buy equipment or even paint because it's Oklahoma, no one is using public school anyway, so why fund it. But what's wrong with Catholic school? They have a tradition of being quite secular and open to different worldviews.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    > But what's wrong with Catholic school? They have a tradition of being quite secular and open to different worldviews. I went to Catholic school, and politically, they certainly seem to be for restricting other people’s freedoms (see abstinence only sex education, gay marriage, and abortion). My whole sex education at the age of 14 or so was a slideshow of genital herpes or sores and “don’t do it”. There’s also the whole decades long organizational support of child molestation issue that one might want to avoid supporting.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      At least the official position of the Catholic Church isn't biblical literalism, so you won't get the A-Beka crap. The Presbyterians down here in my village in Alabama inflict the stuff on the poor kids. I grew up Catholic in a tradition where the social responsibility was taken seriously (also see here: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpingwerk https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolpingwerk). We didn't have the abstinence-only nonsense either, that must be particular to certain regions in the US. BTW, the Catholic position is that marriage is a sacrament that the couple administers to each other (the only sacrament where a priest is not needed), and, well, sex is complicated, and all sorts of Reddit drama happens when FWBs catch feelings & so on. This was actually how the subject was treated in school. The recent child abuse revelations are disappointing. I always said that child abuse isn't confined to catholics, but the hierarchy at least provides some oversight that you don't have in megachurches, but it's clear that that did not happen, it was a total failure up to the Pope.
Bahamut 6y ago
I actually moved to the Bay Area because long term it has the best compensation when accounting for cost of living that I calculated for net take home pay unless I wanted to move over to NYC fintech (definitely don’t want to). While $300k+ is a pipe dream in most of the US, it’s attainable in the Bay Area working for a big tech company as a modest goal.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  Absolutely true. Really. Just don't have 4 kids :)

burnthrow 6y ago

Tulsa's pretty rad. The Ozarks are in Oklahoma too, actually. Sorry you got a ticket: Pay attention and slow down.

meekrohprocess 6y ago
Oh, I only got warnings. Including some for going under the speed limit. The state is full of small-town cops who want to throw their weight around, but they're harmless if you play their game and (sadly) if you're the right color. That's another important consideration for potential applicants.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  if you're the right color. That's another important consideration for potential applicants God, yes. I have colleagues who will not leave the interstate when driving through certain states.
ketamine__ 6y ago
Or buy a radar detector. I actually got a warning instead of a ticket from a cop in Texas while I was going through a construction zone. Great times.
peterwoerner 6y ago
The south in general has a history of funding their local governments through traffic tickets.

eyberg 6y ago

The Ozarks extend well into Missouri as well (also a few hours drive). Ozark the Netflix series even though filmed in Georgia? takes place ~4.5 hrs drive from Tulsa. Besides the forest it's known for all the rivers that people float down.

jjeaff 6y ago
The Ozarks is primarily Missouri and Arkansas. Really only a small area in far east oklahoma is part of the Ozarks.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
meekrohprocess 6y ago
Yeah, they're huge. I love the place. You can travel for miles and miles through remote forest, then pass through a main street that looks like the center of any other large town. You can get lost following the meandering pavement, or get in trouble following a dirt track too far. Dirt bikes share the roads with sport car rallies (and logging trucks). Expansive overlooks appear out of nowhere, and you can find backpacking trails by looking for cairns along the roads. There are equestrian camp sites. It's not really possible to describe in a short text comment.

HarryHirsch 6y ago

I wonder how many of them visited before applying The program will actually pay for a tour of Tulsa for potential recipients who have no connection to the city. That's what the FAQ page says. When you apply they also ask about your connection to Tulsa (friends, family), so to their credit they do take into account that the place may not be for everyone. They have looked into these difficulties, one should give them some credit.

meekrohprocess 6y ago
Oh, for sure - we can debate whether it's misguided or not, but it's definitely nice that the city is putting so much effort into this sort of outreach, and they seem to be serious about the program. People poo-poo the $10k number, but that must have been hard to sell to a city council. I'm more curious about how many of the applications are serious, and how many are reactive to the current situation. There's nothing wrong with seeking stability over excitement, but I sort of worry about people envisioning the whole "Great Plains" idyll.

dehrmann 6y ago

I send these offers to a friend as a joke. The only one I was serious about was Helsinki.