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A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. Thi

A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?

cbnotfromthere 6y ago
Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.
NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.
natmaka 6y ago
Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.

cbnotfromthere 6y ago

Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago

It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.

natmaka 6y ago

Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.