3 ms·

"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 yea

"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets.." Riiiight. It must be their culture? You think that if you give them clean clothes they'll throw them away? You think they prefer a meal picked out of a garbage can to one from a restaurant or grocery store? Or that they'd rather have their kids go without shoes or clothes? "I've seen all those things and they aren't pretty." You might have seen them, but you did not understand them.

quibbler 6y ago
It definitely is the culture of some of them. I'm in a country with social security, but there are groups of them in organized begging (also stealing by word of shop owners, but that is less visible to non-shop owners)'. I wouldn't claim "they" are all like that, but unfortunately the beggars are the most visible group. The organized begging definitely is a kind of culture that family members grow into.
nickpp 6y ago
It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived. There are exceptions, of course, but the dark attraction of the gipsy culture should not be understated.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian communities have grown greatly in stature, and the slurs that were used against them are not so acceptable any more, are they? Asians are now accused, if anything, of being far too educated and unfairly advantaged, though you still hear slurs thrown at them when talk turns to Chinatown or other Asian slums (as if any slum inhabitant, no matter what race or ethnicity, is going to afford to strut around in a freshly pressed three-piece suit). Muslims and people from the Middle East are now getting their turn at being hated and accused of being dirty and lazy in many "civilized" countries to which they come for a better life. Of course, one of the most well known and oppressed of groups who faced the very same accusations were Jews. They also were called dirty, lazy, thieving, etc.. and at the same time rich, thieving, and miserly. This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    > This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers. Ehh...I think this is hyperbolic. It doesn't usually do that, it mostly just kind of simmers at the edges of society. And it's not "every minority and immigrant group", it's the poor ones.
    - pmoriarty 6y ago
      "it's not "every minority and immigrant group", it's the poor ones." Except Jews in Europe in the first half of the 20th Century (and in other places and times) were targeted for being poor and being rich. When they were wealthy they were envied and accused of getting their money through immoral means, like usury and stealing it from their poorer neighbors. When they were poor they were accused of being dirty, and poor because they were lazy. And when they were neither rich nor poor, well then they were hated for just being Jews. Even the ones who had fully assimilated weren't safe, because the racial laws meant that who your ancestors were mattered more than who you were.
  - visarga 6y ago
    > The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. Here comes the generalisation. As many have said, you can only speak with authority if you had first hand experience. I think Bulgarians and other European nations have a much more nuanced and grounded view on the Roma, based on direct experience, not reading news online. They know that not all Roma are the same, they all know exceptions, they realise how hard it is for them to break out of this situation, but at the same time how much of it is self inflicted.
  - nickpp 6y ago
    Do you know anything about Romas and their culture, do you know any Roma person? Because your comment talks about Asians, Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Indians and others but not about Gypsys at all. "Lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers" - are you serious?! What world do you live in? And please check yourself with that racial hate on gypsy culture. Their culture is dark, mysterious, romantic, nomadic, wonderful and beautiful in its own way. It has different values from your culture (and mine) and leads to different outcomes but you shouldn't hate it. Get yourself involved with a community or organization working with Gypsy people and maybe you'll start to understand them better instead of summarily judge them and those who know them.
- s5300 6y ago
  This is called "learned helplessness" and it stems from generations of extreme poverty. Jeesh, do a bit of introspection dude. I can't believe the high horse some of these SWE's (attained or proclaimed) ride sometimes. Why do some people so talented in some areas so gleefully bask in their ignorance of others.
- chefandy 6y ago
  Read the above comment about how locals would refuse to patronize a restaurant staffed by a Romani worker. If you're living in an environment where people go out of their way to make sure you don't have any economic opportunity no matter what you do, what the hell is the point of preparing your children for a workforce that is guaranteed to reject them? To try and gain respectability among people who are steadfastly committed to never respecting them, because some day the dominant culture might decide the underlings are actually human beings? Why should they be disinclined to steal or beg from people who guarantee their entire community will continue to fail?
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    Yes, you put your finger on it. I think the central issue really is a chicken-and-egg issue: the people who live around them put causal force on the Roma's anti-social behavior, the Roma put it on their rejection / exclusion by the people around them (or maybe they don't?). Nobody wins until somebody backs down. Whoever backs down pays costs. If the surrounding people back down and start treating the Roma well, the Roma will take advantage of them for a while. If the Roma back down and start behaving the way the surrounding people want them to, they won't get full credit for their efforts for a while. Maybe there's some way to broker a detente. Maybe that's already happening.
    - reducesuffering 6y ago
      Hmm, who better to bare the brunt of "backing down?" The wealthier group, or the group that if they did would starve and suffer in more squalor conditions than they already are? And for an unknown period of time, could be decades?
    - chefandy 6y ago
      Your premise is based on the assumption of something approaching power equity. The Roma have zero clout in this situation— they can only, primarily, affect their own circumstances, and considering that people are intentionally blocking their access to the economy, they can't even do that very effectively. This isn't two equal weights pushing against each other, it's one sitting on top of the other and blaming them for the fact that they're being sat on.

quibbler 6y ago

It definitely is the culture of some of them. I'm in a country with social security, but there are groups of them in organized begging (also stealing by word of shop owners, but that is less visible to non-shop owners)'. I wouldn't claim "they" are all like that, but unfortunately the beggars are the most visible group. The organized begging definitely is a kind of culture that family members grow into.

nickpp 6y ago

It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived. There are exceptions, of course, but the dark attraction of the gipsy culture should not be understated.

pmoriarty 6y ago
The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian communities have grown greatly in stature, and the slurs that were used against them are not so acceptable any more, are they? Asians are now accused, if anything, of being far too educated and unfairly advantaged, though you still hear slurs thrown at them when talk turns to Chinatown or other Asian slums (as if any slum inhabitant, no matter what race or ethnicity, is going to afford to strut around in a freshly pressed three-piece suit). Muslims and people from the Middle East are now getting their turn at being hated and accused of being dirty and lazy in many "civilized" countries to which they come for a better life. Of course, one of the most well known and oppressed of groups who faced the very same accusations were Jews. They also were called dirty, lazy, thieving, etc.. and at the same time rich, thieving, and miserly. This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  > This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers. Ehh...I think this is hyperbolic. It doesn't usually do that, it mostly just kind of simmers at the edges of society. And it's not "every minority and immigrant group", it's the poor ones.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "it's not "every minority and immigrant group", it's the poor ones." Except Jews in Europe in the first half of the 20th Century (and in other places and times) were targeted for being poor and being rich. When they were wealthy they were envied and accused of getting their money through immoral means, like usury and stealing it from their poorer neighbors. When they were poor they were accused of being dirty, and poor because they were lazy. And when they were neither rich nor poor, well then they were hated for just being Jews. Even the ones who had fully assimilated weren't safe, because the racial laws meant that who your ancestors were mattered more than who you were.
- visarga 6y ago
  > The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. Here comes the generalisation. As many have said, you can only speak with authority if you had first hand experience. I think Bulgarians and other European nations have a much more nuanced and grounded view on the Roma, based on direct experience, not reading news online. They know that not all Roma are the same, they all know exceptions, they realise how hard it is for them to break out of this situation, but at the same time how much of it is self inflicted.
- nickpp 6y ago
  Do you know anything about Romas and their culture, do you know any Roma person? Because your comment talks about Asians, Irish, Italians, Mexicans, Indians and others but not about Gypsys at all. "Lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers" - are you serious?! What world do you live in? And please check yourself with that racial hate on gypsy culture. Their culture is dark, mysterious, romantic, nomadic, wonderful and beautiful in its own way. It has different values from your culture (and mine) and leads to different outcomes but you shouldn't hate it. Get yourself involved with a community or organization working with Gypsy people and maybe you'll start to understand them better instead of summarily judge them and those who know them.
s5300 6y ago
This is called "learned helplessness" and it stems from generations of extreme poverty. Jeesh, do a bit of introspection dude. I can't believe the high horse some of these SWE's (attained or proclaimed) ride sometimes. Why do some people so talented in some areas so gleefully bask in their ignorance of others.
chefandy 6y ago
Read the above comment about how locals would refuse to patronize a restaurant staffed by a Romani worker. If you're living in an environment where people go out of their way to make sure you don't have any economic opportunity no matter what you do, what the hell is the point of preparing your children for a workforce that is guaranteed to reject them? To try and gain respectability among people who are steadfastly committed to never respecting them, because some day the dominant culture might decide the underlings are actually human beings? Why should they be disinclined to steal or beg from people who guarantee their entire community will continue to fail?
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  Yes, you put your finger on it. I think the central issue really is a chicken-and-egg issue: the people who live around them put causal force on the Roma's anti-social behavior, the Roma put it on their rejection / exclusion by the people around them (or maybe they don't?). Nobody wins until somebody backs down. Whoever backs down pays costs. If the surrounding people back down and start treating the Roma well, the Roma will take advantage of them for a while. If the Roma back down and start behaving the way the surrounding people want them to, they won't get full credit for their efforts for a while. Maybe there's some way to broker a detente. Maybe that's already happening.
  - reducesuffering 6y ago
    Hmm, who better to bare the brunt of "backing down?" The wealthier group, or the group that if they did would starve and suffer in more squalor conditions than they already are? And for an unknown period of time, could be decades?
  - chefandy 6y ago
    Your premise is based on the assumption of something approaching power equity. The Roma have zero clout in this situation— they can only, primarily, affect their own circumstances, and considering that people are intentionally blocking their access to the economy, they can't even do that very effectively. This isn't two equal weights pushing against each other, it's one sitting on top of the other and blaming them for the fact that they're being sat on.