4 ms·

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a troll

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated culture. Even Greece has 100k Romani, and most of them are not living on the streets.

yodelshady 6y ago
It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of <member of group P> doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important, and the US obsession over it is a bit weird.
- pentaphobe 6y ago
  > it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important As a gentle counterpoint to this, most of the derogatory terms for Roma translate to "black" - even in areas where the gadji are predominantly dark
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zrobotics 6y ago
  Exactly. I've heard this same type of criticism about Native Americans. "their towns are filthy, you will get robbed, (they aren't proper people, and being friends with them lowers your social status)". Having experienced them, US reservations are definitely shitty places, but everything the OP said applies. Yes, they look like 3rd world counties, and passers-by attribute that to the people living there. Rather, the real reason these places look terrible is poverty and lack of investment. I had the misfortune last year of having to attend a funeral on a reservation (misfortune in the sense that my friend died), and there was a stark line between the ranchland surrounding the res and the res itself. I can't speak to Europe, but even in NA it really isn't about color of skin. I'm of French Mediterranean background, so during the summer I'm browner than most of my Hispanic friends. Doesn't matter, I 'pass' as a white person, while my Hispanic friend who is whiter than me gets treated like a second class citizen. It's fucked, but in America I don't actually think it's about race, americans just hide classism behind race since racism is more acceptable than classism. Edit: not to say that reservations are unequalled places of filth. In my experience, even if you aren't native people are willing to help out. I was cross-country traveling on a garbage old Harley that needed help every 75 miles, and I had the most generous offers when I was in Native country vs. anything else. This agrees with the OP, in these places people are more willing to help out. For example, in a reservation town in SW SD my magneto died. I struggled with kicking the bike for 10 minutes, somebody eventually saw I was struggling and offered to call their cousin with a truck. Towing the bike behind a truck got it to fire, and everyone involved refused money (common response was "you'll need it later"). I get I was driving an absolute crap piece of machinery, but the reservation towns were much more helpful than other towns that I broke down in over that trip (and I broke down in a lot, I was driving a 71 harley sportster, they weren't even reliable when new).
hvdfhbj 6y ago
Seems like culture and poverty are one and the same, in this case. If you are poor then maybe you will behave like that, but if you behave like that then you will certainly be poor.
NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
It's both poverty and culture. The two can't be separated. You end up with a chicken-and-egg scenario: people surrounding the Roma know that the Roma they encounter are disproportionately likely to be the people who e.g. commit street crimes. This makes them act accordingly, by doing things like avoiding groups of Roma. This makes it harder for Roma who aren't committing crimes, whose behavior is not reflected in that estimate, to improve their culture or escape it. The non-Roma estimating that the average Roma is too likely to be violent to be worth interacting with think that for a reason, and we may call it "racism" or "bigotry" but it isn't unfounded. My sense is that it's very popular to point to external causes, causes that aren't blame-producing. "It's because they're poor"...well, maybe it's true that "If not for being poor..." but that's not the world we live in. By many accounts their culture (that is, the set of learned things they inherit) is set up to produce more poverty, crime, and social isolation. There are many groups of very poor people who do not have this problem, and who thrive in different circumstances. Accepting that there are things about their culture that would be better if changed or removed both reflects empirical reality and sets you down the road to finding a workable solution.

yodelshady 6y ago

It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of <member of group P> doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important, and the US obsession over it is a bit weird.

pentaphobe 6y ago
> it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important As a gentle counterpoint to this, most of the derogatory terms for Roma translate to "black" - even in areas where the gadji are predominantly dark
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
zrobotics 6y ago
Exactly. I've heard this same type of criticism about Native Americans. "their towns are filthy, you will get robbed, (they aren't proper people, and being friends with them lowers your social status)". Having experienced them, US reservations are definitely shitty places, but everything the OP said applies. Yes, they look like 3rd world counties, and passers-by attribute that to the people living there. Rather, the real reason these places look terrible is poverty and lack of investment. I had the misfortune last year of having to attend a funeral on a reservation (misfortune in the sense that my friend died), and there was a stark line between the ranchland surrounding the res and the res itself. I can't speak to Europe, but even in NA it really isn't about color of skin. I'm of French Mediterranean background, so during the summer I'm browner than most of my Hispanic friends. Doesn't matter, I 'pass' as a white person, while my Hispanic friend who is whiter than me gets treated like a second class citizen. It's fucked, but in America I don't actually think it's about race, americans just hide classism behind race since racism is more acceptable than classism. Edit: not to say that reservations are unequalled places of filth. In my experience, even if you aren't native people are willing to help out. I was cross-country traveling on a garbage old Harley that needed help every 75 miles, and I had the most generous offers when I was in Native country vs. anything else. This agrees with the OP, in these places people are more willing to help out. For example, in a reservation town in SW SD my magneto died. I struggled with kicking the bike for 10 minutes, somebody eventually saw I was struggling and offered to call their cousin with a truck. Towing the bike behind a truck got it to fire, and everyone involved refused money (common response was "you'll need it later"). I get I was driving an absolute crap piece of machinery, but the reservation towns were much more helpful than other towns that I broke down in over that trip (and I broke down in a lot, I was driving a 71 harley sportster, they weren't even reliable when new).

hvdfhbj 6y ago

Seems like culture and poverty are one and the same, in this case. If you are poor then maybe you will behave like that, but if you behave like that then you will certainly be poor.

NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago

It's both poverty and culture. The two can't be separated. You end up with a chicken-and-egg scenario: people surrounding the Roma know that the Roma they encounter are disproportionately likely to be the people who e.g. commit street crimes. This makes them act accordingly, by doing things like avoiding groups of Roma. This makes it harder for Roma who aren't committing crimes, whose behavior is not reflected in that estimate, to improve their culture or escape it. The non-Roma estimating that the average Roma is too likely to be violent to be worth interacting with think that for a reason, and we may call it "racism" or "bigotry" but it isn't unfounded. My sense is that it's very popular to point to external causes, causes that aren't blame-producing. "It's because they're poor"...well, maybe it's true that "If not for being poor..." but that's not the world we live in. By many accounts their culture (that is, the set of learned things they inherit) is set up to produce more poverty, crime, and social isolation. There are many groups of very poor people who do not have this problem, and who thrive in different circumstances. Accepting that there are things about their culture that would be better if changed or removed both reflects empirical reality and sets you down the road to finding a workable solution.