4 ms·

> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opport

> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opportunity, not further isolation.

xyzzyz 6y ago
There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average: most people survive on less than that, some even on half that. However, crime in Ukraine is lower than in US, and it’s significantly lower than in US cities. While its infrastructure’s state reflects the income levels, it’s not atrocious, and it’s certainly better than what US would end up with if it was only spending figures comparable to Ukraine. Certainly, you don’t have rotting garbage piling up everywhere on the sides of the street, like in the OP photos. It’s not poverty that results in what happens in Gypsy ghettos. It’s the culture.
- purerandomness 6y ago
  A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?
  - cbnotfromthere 6y ago
    Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.
  - natmaka 6y ago
    Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.

> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opportunity, not further isolation.

xyzzyz 6y ago

There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average: most people survive on less than that, some even on half that. However, crime in Ukraine is lower than in US, and it’s significantly lower than in US cities. While its infrastructure’s state reflects the income levels, it’s not atrocious, and it’s certainly better than what US would end up with if it was only spending figures comparable to Ukraine. Certainly, you don’t have rotting garbage piling up everywhere on the sides of the street, like in the OP photos. It’s not poverty that results in what happens in Gypsy ghettos. It’s the culture.

purerandomness 6y ago
A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?
- cbnotfromthere 6y ago
  Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.
- NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
  It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.
- natmaka 6y ago
  Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.