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I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are co

I was bored and raised In Thessaloniki, Greece where there’s a big community of Roma but also it’s a common understanding that lots of them from Bulgaria are constantly driving to Greece. In the community that I grew (Evosmos, West Thessaloniki) there were many of them. I’ve met a few that were integrated in the community, managed to finish school etc. But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets At noon sneaking into stores and stealing whatever they can. Their teenagers are bullying everyone they can when they go out for no reason. They are deep into the drugs and the guns game. Police are always on them but there isn’t much they can do but to isolate them in further areas outside the city. I’ve seen all those things and they aren’t pretty.

glitcher 6y ago
> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opportunity, not further isolation.
- xyzzyz 6y ago
  There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average: most people survive on less than that, some even on half that. However, crime in Ukraine is lower than in US, and it’s significantly lower than in US cities. While its infrastructure’s state reflects the income levels, it’s not atrocious, and it’s certainly better than what US would end up with if it was only spending figures comparable to Ukraine. Certainly, you don’t have rotting garbage piling up everywhere on the sides of the street, like in the OP photos. It’s not poverty that results in what happens in Gypsy ghettos. It’s the culture.
  - purerandomness 6y ago
    A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?
    - cbnotfromthere 6y ago
      Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
      It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.
    - natmaka 6y ago
      Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.
titanomachy 6y ago
To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated culture. Even Greece has 100k Romani, and most of them are not living on the streets.
- yodelshady 6y ago
  It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of <member of group P> doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important, and the US obsession over it is a bit weird.
  - pentaphobe 6y ago
    > it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important As a gentle counterpoint to this, most of the derogatory terms for Roma translate to "black" - even in areas where the gadji are predominantly dark
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - zrobotics 6y ago
    Exactly. I've heard this same type of criticism about Native Americans. "their towns are filthy, you will get robbed, (they aren't proper people, and being friends with them lowers your social status)". Having experienced them, US reservations are definitely shitty places, but everything the OP said applies. Yes, they look like 3rd world counties, and passers-by attribute that to the people living there. Rather, the real reason these places look terrible is poverty and lack of investment. I had the misfortune last year of having to attend a funeral on a reservation (misfortune in the sense that my friend died), and there was a stark line between the ranchland surrounding the res and the res itself. I can't speak to Europe, but even in NA it really isn't about color of skin. I'm of French Mediterranean background, so during the summer I'm browner than most of my Hispanic friends. Doesn't matter, I 'pass' as a white person, while my Hispanic friend who is whiter than me gets treated like a second class citizen. It's fucked, but in America I don't actually think it's about race, americans just hide classism behind race since racism is more acceptable than classism. Edit: not to say that reservations are unequalled places of filth. In my experience, even if you aren't native people are willing to help out. I was cross-country traveling on a garbage old Harley that needed help every 75 miles, and I had the most generous offers when I was in Native country vs. anything else. This agrees with the OP, in these places people are more willing to help out. For example, in a reservation town in SW SD my magneto died. I struggled with kicking the bike for 10 minutes, somebody eventually saw I was struggling and offered to call their cousin with a truck. Towing the bike behind a truck got it to fire, and everyone involved refused money (common response was "you'll need it later"). I get I was driving an absolute crap piece of machinery, but the reservation towns were much more helpful than other towns that I broke down in over that trip (and I broke down in a lot, I was driving a 71 harley sportster, they weren't even reliable when new).
pmoriarty 6y ago
"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets.." Riiiight. It must be their culture? You think that if you give them clean clothes they'll throw them away? You think they prefer a meal picked out of a garbage can to one from a restaurant or grocery store? Or that they'd rather have their kids go without shoes or clothes? "I've seen all those things and they aren't pretty." You might have seen them, but you did not understand them.
- quibbler 6y ago
  It definitely is the culture of some of them. I'm in a country with social security, but there are groups of them in organized begging (also stealing by word of shop owners, but that is less visible to non-shop owners)'. I wouldn't claim "they" are all like that, but unfortunately the beggars are the most visible group. The organized begging definitely is a kind of culture that family members grow into.
- nickpp 6y ago
  It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived. There are exceptions, of course, but the dark attraction of the gipsy culture should not be understated.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian communities have grown greatly in stature, and the slurs that were used against them are not so acceptable any more, are they? Asians are now accused, if anything, of being far too educated and unfairly advantaged, though you still hear slurs thrown at them when talk turns to Chinatown or other Asian slums (as if any slum inhabitant, no matter what race or ethnicity, is going to afford to strut around in a freshly pressed three-piece suit). Muslims and people from the Middle East are now getting their turn at being hated and accused of being dirty and lazy in many "civilized" countries to which they come for a better life. Of course, one of the most well known and oppressed of groups who faced the very same accusations were Jews. They also were called dirty, lazy, thieving, etc.. and at the same time rich, thieving, and miserly. This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers.
ununoctium87 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=419bc_YjaFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=419bc_YjaFk
s5300 6y ago
Yeah... this isn't about culture. This is what poverty looks like, especially in underdeveloped areas. Have you not seen Venice Beach lately? Or perhaps you might want to say that the current state of Venice Beach is just... it's culture? Go watch a video on West Point, Liberia
yumraj 6y ago
Sorry, but you're just showing your own ignorance. Rather than accept, or be open to the fact that they are poor and discriminated against, you are just passing judgement on their entire culture. To be fair, modern Greek culture is nothing but a shadow of its ancient past.

glitcher 6y ago

> But their culture is just nothing about that. And then you go on to describe the effects of poverty, not culture. Sounds to me like they need economic opportunity, not further isolation.

xyzzyz 6y ago
There are plenty of very poor people and groups in Europe. Look at Ukraine, for example: majority of its population lives under what in the US would count as harsh poverty. Average wage outside of Kiev is around $2500 a year (a year, not a month), and even if you adjust it for purchasing power, it still buys you less than $10k does in US. And that’s average: most people survive on less than that, some even on half that. However, crime in Ukraine is lower than in US, and it’s significantly lower than in US cities. While its infrastructure’s state reflects the income levels, it’s not atrocious, and it’s certainly better than what US would end up with if it was only spending figures comparable to Ukraine. Certainly, you don’t have rotting garbage piling up everywhere on the sides of the street, like in the OP photos. It’s not poverty that results in what happens in Gypsy ghettos. It’s the culture.
- purerandomness 6y ago
  A Ukrainian has no problems getting a job in a restaurant kitchen in Kiev, while it's virtually impossible for a Gipsy to get a job in the city, or a flat. This is not something you can compare. When no amount of grit, resilience, hard work or effort will give you any result, what would you do to survive?
  - cbnotfromthere 6y ago
    Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, front-customer jobs are off limits to Gypsies. I can assure you there is plenty of work in agriculture and in construction in Ukraine, yet close to zero Gypsies interested in such jobs (lots of vacancies unfulfilled). Near my residence in France there is a town called Lezignan-Corbieres. During the working hours the Gypsies parade on the main street; 99% of them are living off government hand offs.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 6y ago
    It seems like one issue is that the Roma can be easily identified even when mostly or fully absorbed by the surrounding culture. That isn't true of poor Ukranians I bet. But my gut says there's some dynamic with the Roma whereby remaining separate and different is highly valued by the community, and they punish their own for doing things that erode that separation. Which may be self-sustaining, but it's probably bad for them in aggregate.
  - natmaka 6y ago
    Those who are integrated in a modern nation and only see the benefits (or, at best, neglect the side effects) cannot understand those who reject it because they hate various ordeals implied by the corresponding underlying system. See Aesop’s "A Wolf and Dog" ( https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-the-wolf/ https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/35/aesops-fables/381/the-dog-and-... ) Roms do observe us, and may conclude that we aren't happy. In a way Roms behavior "terraforms" a virtual Zomia ( http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12/06/the_mystery_of_zomia/ http://archive.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/12... ) inside the very geographic zones we occupy.

titanomachy 6y ago

To be fair, that behaviour is probably more associated with poverty than their "culture". North America also has people "wearing dirty clothes, carrying a trolley, and going through garbage cans" but it has nothing to do with their ethnic or cultural background, it's due to a lack of better options. In some places, like Andalusia, the Romani people flourished and developed a distinctive and globally appreciated culture. Even Greece has 100k Romani, and most of them are not living on the streets.

yodelshady 6y ago
It is absolutely a poverty problem first. Racism is much harder to maintain when the evidence in front of your face is of <member of group P> doing just fine, and where continuing to be racist costs you something. Capitalism got this right. On one hand, European culture is indeed hypocritical to throw stones at the US over racism. Quite staggeringly so, actually. If I may, it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important, and the US obsession over it is a bit weird.
- pentaphobe 6y ago
  > it's also an excellent demonstration that skin colour really isn't that important As a gentle counterpoint to this, most of the derogatory terms for Roma translate to "black" - even in areas where the gadji are predominantly dark
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zrobotics 6y ago
  Exactly. I've heard this same type of criticism about Native Americans. "their towns are filthy, you will get robbed, (they aren't proper people, and being friends with them lowers your social status)". Having experienced them, US reservations are definitely shitty places, but everything the OP said applies. Yes, they look like 3rd world counties, and passers-by attribute that to the people living there. Rather, the real reason these places look terrible is poverty and lack of investment. I had the misfortune last year of having to attend a funeral on a reservation (misfortune in the sense that my friend died), and there was a stark line between the ranchland surrounding the res and the res itself. I can't speak to Europe, but even in NA it really isn't about color of skin. I'm of French Mediterranean background, so during the summer I'm browner than most of my Hispanic friends. Doesn't matter, I 'pass' as a white person, while my Hispanic friend who is whiter than me gets treated like a second class citizen. It's fucked, but in America I don't actually think it's about race, americans just hide classism behind race since racism is more acceptable than classism. Edit: not to say that reservations are unequalled places of filth. In my experience, even if you aren't native people are willing to help out. I was cross-country traveling on a garbage old Harley that needed help every 75 miles, and I had the most generous offers when I was in Native country vs. anything else. This agrees with the OP, in these places people are more willing to help out. For example, in a reservation town in SW SD my magneto died. I struggled with kicking the bike for 10 minutes, somebody eventually saw I was struggling and offered to call their cousin with a truck. Towing the bike behind a truck got it to fire, and everyone involved refused money (common response was "you'll need it later"). I get I was driving an absolute crap piece of machinery, but the reservation towns were much more helpful than other towns that I broke down in over that trip (and I broke down in a lot, I was driving a 71 harley sportster, they weren't even reliable when new).

pmoriarty 6y ago

"But their culture is just nothing about that. Women in dirty clothes carrying a trolley all day and going through garbage cans collecting dumps. Kids 5,6,7 years old with no shoes and no clothes on are walking around main streets.." Riiiight. It must be their culture? You think that if you give them clean clothes they'll throw them away? You think they prefer a meal picked out of a garbage can to one from a restaurant or grocery store? Or that they'd rather have their kids go without shoes or clothes? "I've seen all those things and they aren't pretty." You might have seen them, but you did not understand them.

quibbler 6y ago
It definitely is the culture of some of them. I'm in a country with social security, but there are groups of them in organized begging (also stealing by word of shop owners, but that is less visible to non-shop owners)'. I wouldn't claim "they" are all like that, but unfortunately the beggars are the most visible group. The organized begging definitely is a kind of culture that family members grow into.
nickpp 6y ago
It’s the culture. They’d let the clean clothes get soiled black rather than wash and keep them clean. They’d rather eat stolen food from garbage rather than have to work for a restaurant meal. My mother was a primary school teacher in a Gipsy village and saw this first hand: small kids being encouraged to beg or steal instead of study by their own parents, abandoning school for the street lifestyle their family lived. There are exceptions, of course, but the dark attraction of the gipsy culture should not be understated.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  The same racist swill has been slung at nearly every minority and immigrant group. People of Asian descent were accused of being dirty, so were black people, so were Irish and Italian immigrants, Mexicans, Indians, and of course Native Americans. Their poverty was thrown in their face, as so was their lack of education (which was often mandated by law or other forms of discrimination). Now in the US Irish and Italian communities have grown greatly in stature, and the slurs that were used against them are not so acceptable any more, are they? Asians are now accused, if anything, of being far too educated and unfairly advantaged, though you still hear slurs thrown at them when talk turns to Chinatown or other Asian slums (as if any slum inhabitant, no matter what race or ethnicity, is going to afford to strut around in a freshly pressed three-piece suit). Muslims and people from the Middle East are now getting their turn at being hated and accused of being dirty and lazy in many "civilized" countries to which they come for a better life. Of course, one of the most well known and oppressed of groups who faced the very same accusations were Jews. They also were called dirty, lazy, thieving, etc.. and at the same time rich, thieving, and miserly. This kind of racist, bigoted, xenophobic libel leads straight to lynchings, pogroms, and gas chambers.

ununoctium87 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=419bc_YjaFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=419bc_YjaFk

s5300 6y ago

Yeah... this isn't about culture. This is what poverty looks like, especially in underdeveloped areas. Have you not seen Venice Beach lately? Or perhaps you might want to say that the current state of Venice Beach is just... it's culture? Go watch a video on West Point, Liberia

yumraj 6y ago

Sorry, but you're just showing your own ignorance. Rather than accept, or be open to the fact that they are poor and discriminated against, you are just passing judgement on their entire culture. To be fair, modern Greek culture is nothing but a shadow of its ancient past.