4 ms·

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One can

There is a lot of "racism" talk on this thread, but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe as they are regularly dismantled by the police. One cannot defend the exploitation of the poor, young kids, the disabled, the old, sent to western Europe and forced into begging, stealing or mugging locals and excuse that with "cultural relativism". These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children to school even in places where school is mandatory under 15 thus perpetuate the cycle of illiteracy. Is this what educated people here are defending? really? This kids aren't even given a chance to succeed. They have a tight sense of community and most of them never assimilate wherever they go and barely make effort to speak the local language. This isn't a cliché or a stereotype, that's the reality of these gangs. There is next to 500 Roma slums around Paris, and we're talking about people that have for EU citizenship. One cannot blame that situation on "racism", this is 100% due to criminal behaviour and gangs trafficking vulnerable people. Yes, all Roma aren't like this, a lot of them work tough jobs in agriculture or construction. But criminal Roma networks are a reality nobody can deny.

mrtksn 6y ago
If it was about race, how do you explain the roma situation in Turkey? It's the same people but drastically different engagement in the public life. The gangs, the trash, the dirt, the kids out of school - all real things as photographed and descrbed by the author of the article. The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.
- throw_m239339 6y ago
  > The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right. You're insinuating that Bulgaria enacted policies that forced Roma into a life of crime. You're also insinuating that all Europe enacted policies that forced Roma in Europe into crime since they behave likewise everywhere in Europe this specific group of gypsies goes which is a preposterous assertion. There are other groups of gypsies, in France for instance which live there and do not have that criminal culture. So no, the problem isn't Bulgaria, or Romania, or France. The problem is criminal gangs that exploit their illiterate brothers and sisters, you can't put the onus on European states, not today.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    Well, if it’s not about gypsies and policies but about criminal gangs then that’s the police not doing their job.
    - throw_m239339 6y ago
      > Well, if it’s not about gypsies and policies but about criminal gangs then that’s the police not doing their job. If parents don't send their children to school so they can have chance to a better life then the parents, thus their culture, is the issue, not the police, a culture that is essentially criminogenic because it encourages bad behaviour and segregation due to illiteracy.
  - malkia 6y ago
    It did actually (Bulgarian here). During communist regime, roma (gypsies) were segregated - taught in different schools, lived in different areas. When the communist regime fell, it was accepted that's how it is, and the situation did not improve. Just my view on the matter.
maest 6y ago
> But criminal Roma networks are a reality nobody can deny. True, but that doesn't mean there is no racism. If anything, this would support the fact that racism exists, since conflict tends to make people think in terms of in-group/out-group. A follow-up question is whether the racism is justified. An even more important question is whether the conlfict stems from a failure to integrate different cultures and whether taking deliberate steps to encourage integration would resolve these conflicts. Btw, the same argument also comes up wrt racial tensions in the US: "Blacks are x% of the population, yet are involved in y% of crime" with y >> x.
- p2detar 6y ago
  Actually, I think his comment was a spot on: > They have a tight sense of community and most of them never assimilate wherever they go and barely make effort to speak the local language. This has been my impression as well. The Roma seem to first identify themselves as part of their community and only then, part of the common folk in the country they reside in. Many also follow some internal social group laws that are often totally illegal, e.g., bride market. To answer your question, I believe there’s a strong mismatch in culture and I do not see a way to solve this problem with any possible social or state actions. The problem, as it seems, will solve itself in the long term as the Roma population has a greater positive net increase compared to the non-Roma population in Eastern Europe. It seems in some decades from now, Eastern Europe will mostly be Roma populated. Is that good or bad, I honestly don’t know. Some interesting figures reported by Reuters - https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE57C04G20090813 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/.... The year is 2009 but to me it seems valid for 2020, though population numbers may have doubled since then.
  - throwawayxyz987 6y ago
    > Is that good or bad, I honestly don’t know https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/13/kidnapped-slaves-rescued-from-life-of-chains-beatings-in-romania.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/13/kidnapped-slav... BUCHAREST, ROMANIA—Dozens of vulnerable men and boys were kidnapped, chained, whipped, fed scraps and forced to work or fight each other for entertainment over an eight-year period in rural southern Romania, prosecutors said Wednesday. Three men and two boys aged between 10 and 12 were found chained up and were rescued by police Wednesday in the mountain town of Berevoiesti during searches at the homes of suspects — members of an extended Roma family. Organized-crime prosecutors said the investigation involves some 90 suspects who they say exploited around 65 people with physical and mental disabilities or who were very poor, making them log wood, beg or look after animals.
TT3351 6y ago
I don't think you have to "defend the exploitation of the poor..." to argue that the problem is these people are not being integrated into the social/government networks the rest of Europe benefits from. The criminal gangs fill a vacuum. Insularity results from centuries of maltreatment.
mariusor 6y ago
> but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe There are a plethora of criminal gangs that belong to other ethnicities and nationalities in Europe. Painting the whole ethnicity/nationality with the same brush is the textbook definition of racism even though we like to hide it behind "not all Roma are like this". > These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children to school even in places where school is mandatory under 15 thus perpetuate the cycle of illiteracy. Is this what educated people here are defending? really? This kids aren't even given a chance to succeed. Yes. Gypsies are very insular and keep their culture, but I feel like that is too convenient of an explanation that people are using. In my opinion governments should make a better attempt at integrating them into the education system. Literacy is key into helping them overcome the gadjo vs roma mentality and I don't think that people and communities do enough to overcome this problem.

mrtksn 6y ago

If it was about race, how do you explain the roma situation in Turkey? It's the same people but drastically different engagement in the public life. The gangs, the trash, the dirt, the kids out of school - all real things as photographed and descrbed by the author of the article. The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right.

throw_m239339 6y ago
> The more likely explanation is that the Bulgarians screwed up with the policy and the Turks got something right. You're insinuating that Bulgaria enacted policies that forced Roma into a life of crime. You're also insinuating that all Europe enacted policies that forced Roma in Europe into crime since they behave likewise everywhere in Europe this specific group of gypsies goes which is a preposterous assertion. There are other groups of gypsies, in France for instance which live there and do not have that criminal culture. So no, the problem isn't Bulgaria, or Romania, or France. The problem is criminal gangs that exploit their illiterate brothers and sisters, you can't put the onus on European states, not today.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Well, if it’s not about gypsies and policies but about criminal gangs then that’s the police not doing their job.
  - throw_m239339 6y ago
    > Well, if it’s not about gypsies and policies but about criminal gangs then that’s the police not doing their job. If parents don't send their children to school so they can have chance to a better life then the parents, thus their culture, is the issue, not the police, a culture that is essentially criminogenic because it encourages bad behaviour and segregation due to illiteracy.
- malkia 6y ago
  It did actually (Bulgarian here). During communist regime, roma (gypsies) were segregated - taught in different schools, lived in different areas. When the communist regime fell, it was accepted that's how it is, and the situation did not improve. Just my view on the matter.

maest 6y ago

> But criminal Roma networks are a reality nobody can deny. True, but that doesn't mean there is no racism. If anything, this would support the fact that racism exists, since conflict tends to make people think in terms of in-group/out-group. A follow-up question is whether the racism is justified. An even more important question is whether the conlfict stems from a failure to integrate different cultures and whether taking deliberate steps to encourage integration would resolve these conflicts. Btw, the same argument also comes up wrt racial tensions in the US: "Blacks are x% of the population, yet are involved in y% of crime" with y >> x.

p2detar 6y ago
Actually, I think his comment was a spot on: > They have a tight sense of community and most of them never assimilate wherever they go and barely make effort to speak the local language. This has been my impression as well. The Roma seem to first identify themselves as part of their community and only then, part of the common folk in the country they reside in. Many also follow some internal social group laws that are often totally illegal, e.g., bride market. To answer your question, I believe there’s a strong mismatch in culture and I do not see a way to solve this problem with any possible social or state actions. The problem, as it seems, will solve itself in the long term as the Roma population has a greater positive net increase compared to the non-Roma population in Eastern Europe. It seems in some decades from now, Eastern Europe will mostly be Roma populated. Is that good or bad, I honestly don’t know. Some interesting figures reported by Reuters - https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE57C04G20090813 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/.... The year is 2009 but to me it seems valid for 2020, though population numbers may have doubled since then.
- throwawayxyz987 6y ago
  > Is that good or bad, I honestly don’t know https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/13/kidnapped-slaves-rescued-from-life-of-chains-beatings-in-romania.html https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/07/13/kidnapped-slav... BUCHAREST, ROMANIA—Dozens of vulnerable men and boys were kidnapped, chained, whipped, fed scraps and forced to work or fight each other for entertainment over an eight-year period in rural southern Romania, prosecutors said Wednesday. Three men and two boys aged between 10 and 12 were found chained up and were rescued by police Wednesday in the mountain town of Berevoiesti during searches at the homes of suspects — members of an extended Roma family. Organized-crime prosecutors said the investigation involves some 90 suspects who they say exploited around 65 people with physical and mental disabilities or who were very poor, making them log wood, beg or look after animals.

TT3351 6y ago

I don't think you have to "defend the exploitation of the poor..." to argue that the problem is these people are not being integrated into the social/government networks the rest of Europe benefits from. The criminal gangs fill a vacuum. Insularity results from centuries of maltreatment.

mariusor 6y ago

> but criminal Roma gangs are an undeniable fact in Europe There are a plethora of criminal gangs that belong to other ethnicities and nationalities in Europe. Painting the whole ethnicity/nationality with the same brush is the textbook definition of racism even though we like to hide it behind "not all Roma are like this". > These ones live in shanty towns, do not send their young children to school even in places where school is mandatory under 15 thus perpetuate the cycle of illiteracy. Is this what educated people here are defending? really? This kids aren't even given a chance to succeed. Yes. Gypsies are very insular and keep their culture, but I feel like that is too convenient of an explanation that people are using. In my opinion governments should make a better attempt at integrating them into the education system. Literacy is key into helping them overcome the gadjo vs roma mentality and I don't think that people and communities do enough to overcome this problem.