5 ms·

What on earth does it mean to "out" a trans person? The whole point of transitioning is to be perceived differently. I can't hide my trans status from my parent

by ouid 6y ago

What on earth does it mean to "out" a trans person? The whole point of transitioning is to be perceived differently. I can't hide my trans status from my parents or a school that I attended pre-transition. This is a totally disingenuous answer.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago
I don’t get it either. Because acceptance is not automatic. There will always be people who won’t accept you as you see yourself.. it is their right. Having said that.. As a counter example: as immigrants, we always get ‘where are you from originally’. One can’t be ‘outed’ as an immigrant. It is what it is. And so what? If I had to hide that I am an immigrant, then it would mean that I am ok with discrimination against those who choose to disclose or can’t hide that they are immigrants. It is a fear based position. The calls for suppression of truth comes from a place of fear. I have some compassion for those acting out of fear, but we cannot sacrifice rational means to find fixes to problems ..neither can we suppress freedom of expression. If trans people are discriminated against, we should tackle that phenomena of intolerance. We can’t pretend that trans people don’t exist and we can’t feed the paranoia..justified or not. The only way to figure out answers is to dig down deep to get the root of the issue. This is impossible if we are not allowed to talk about it.
- eesmith 6y ago
  > as immigrants, we always get ‘where are you from originally’. That question in the US usually means either 1) your accent is noticeably not American, or 2) you or your ancestors didn't come to the US from Europe or via the African diaspora. Native Americans get asked that question. Fourth-generation Chinese-Americans get asked that question. Puerto Ricans are asked that question. But a white friend of mine, born in the US to English parents, with no noticeable non-US accent, doesn't get asked that question. So "where are you from originally" comes across not about "immigrant" but about being "different" and even with an implication of being a second-class citizen. See for example the opinions given at https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/08/opinion/where-im-really-from/ https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/08/opinion/where-im... . Quoting Samantha Geovjian Clarke, born in the US, raised in Portland, Oregon: > Sometimes I think they feel like it's more polite to ask ambiguously "where are you from?" or "what are you?" because they're afraid to say race, ethnicity, heritage or nationality – lots of white people don't even know the difference. But they end up being hurtful and displaying deep-seated biases about race by implying I'm not really from America if I'm brown, even though I was born here, or worse, implying that I'm not human because I'm brown (with the "what are you?" question). If the question "where are you from originally" and variants are interpreted by many as a sign of intolerance, and not simply one of curiosity - which it surely is for some! - then perhaps it's not a particularly effective counter-example? If you want to dig down deeper to get to the root of this specific issue, here are some resources which talk about it: "Everyday Racism: ‘Where Are You Really From?’" at https://theglobepost.com/2017/08 https://theglobepost.com/2017/08 , /10/everyday-racism/ ; "Is It Racist to Ask People Where They're From?" at https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/question-where-are-you-from-racist/373818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/qu... ; and an essay more focused on examples of when that question is asked with racist overtones, "“Where Are You From?” Racial Microaggressions" at https://othersociologist.com/2017/07/15/where-are-you-from-racial-microaggressions/ https://othersociologist.com/2017/07/15/where-are-you-from-r... .
dragonwriter 6y ago
> What on earth does it mean to "out" a trans person? Typically, it means to publicly reveal, when this is not welcome by the subject, the gender-socially-ascribed-at-birth (usually, on the basis of external genitalia) of a person whose gender identity and public gender presentation are not consistent with that ascribed-at-birth gender. (Though in the case of the legislation at issue, it generally goes beyond that kind of outing to also include forcibly ascribing the gender-ascribed-at-birth and regulating substantive behavior and options on the basis of that ascribed gender.)
ReactiveJelly 6y ago
Unlike with cis gay people, there's two unrelated ways a trans person can be "in the closet": - You haven't told anyone that you're transitioning, and Eve the attacker tells Alice and Bob. You weren't ready to tell Bob, and you never intended to tell Alice. Eve has outed you as trans to Alice and Bob. - The public part of your transition is complete, you can pass for cis, and you don't want people to know you're trans. Eve tells Alice and Bob that you're trans. You weren't ready to tell Bob, and you never intended to tell Alice. Eve has outed you as trans to Alice and Bob. The 2nd kind of closet is often called "going stealth". Some sources says it used to be called "woodworking", i.e. blending into the woodwork. Some people call the 1st kind "stealth", but I think "closet" is less ambiguous. > I can't hide my trans status from my parents or a school that I attended pre-transition. This is true. I came out at work recently, so almost all of my coworkers know that I'm trans. But there are a few new hires who might not know. It would be impolite for someone to tell a new hire about me, at least without asking me. So for children, the 1st case is probably what they're talking about. If a child is questioning their gender identity, it's not kind to out them to anyone. They will probably be bullied. It's the gender identity equivalent of gossiping about Alice having a one-night stand with Eve. Is it wrong to bully her about it? Of course. But as long as the bullies exist, it's also wrong to gossip about it and expose her to danger. Defense in depth means don't bully anyone, and also don't open them up to bullying.
- ouid 6y ago
  alright, but a rule requiring social transitioning before medically transitioning would have neither of those effects, so to argue that it would out people is disingenuous. I do not agree with that rule as a law, for the record, but it does make sense as an ethical policy among doctors.
- jelliclesfarm 6y ago
  Why is it impolite? People talk amongst themselves. Gossip is not bullying. Sincere query.

by ouid 6y ago

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

I don’t get it either. Because acceptance is not automatic. There will always be people who won’t accept you as you see yourself.. it is their right. Having said that.. As a counter example: as immigrants, we always get ‘where are you from originally’. One can’t be ‘outed’ as an immigrant. It is what it is. And so what? If I had to hide that I am an immigrant, then it would mean that I am ok with discrimination against those who choose to disclose or can’t hide that they are immigrants. It is a fear based position. The calls for suppression of truth comes from a place of fear. I have some compassion for those acting out of fear, but we cannot sacrifice rational means to find fixes to problems ..neither can we suppress freedom of expression. If trans people are discriminated against, we should tackle that phenomena of intolerance. We can’t pretend that trans people don’t exist and we can’t feed the paranoia..justified or not. The only way to figure out answers is to dig down deep to get the root of the issue. This is impossible if we are not allowed to talk about it.

eesmith 6y ago
> as immigrants, we always get ‘where are you from originally’. That question in the US usually means either 1) your accent is noticeably not American, or 2) you or your ancestors didn't come to the US from Europe or via the African diaspora. Native Americans get asked that question. Fourth-generation Chinese-Americans get asked that question. Puerto Ricans are asked that question. But a white friend of mine, born in the US to English parents, with no noticeable non-US accent, doesn't get asked that question. So "where are you from originally" comes across not about "immigrant" but about being "different" and even with an implication of being a second-class citizen. See for example the opinions given at https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/08/opinion/where-im-really-from/ https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/08/opinion/where-im... . Quoting Samantha Geovjian Clarke, born in the US, raised in Portland, Oregon: > Sometimes I think they feel like it's more polite to ask ambiguously "where are you from?" or "what are you?" because they're afraid to say race, ethnicity, heritage or nationality – lots of white people don't even know the difference. But they end up being hurtful and displaying deep-seated biases about race by implying I'm not really from America if I'm brown, even though I was born here, or worse, implying that I'm not human because I'm brown (with the "what are you?" question). If the question "where are you from originally" and variants are interpreted by many as a sign of intolerance, and not simply one of curiosity - which it surely is for some! - then perhaps it's not a particularly effective counter-example? If you want to dig down deeper to get to the root of this specific issue, here are some resources which talk about it: "Everyday Racism: ‘Where Are You Really From?’" at https://theglobepost.com/2017/08 https://theglobepost.com/2017/08 , /10/everyday-racism/ ; "Is It Racist to Ask People Where They're From?" at https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/question-where-are-you-from-racist/373818/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/qu... ; and an essay more focused on examples of when that question is asked with racist overtones, "“Where Are You From?” Racial Microaggressions" at https://othersociologist.com/2017/07/15/where-are-you-from-racial-microaggressions/ https://othersociologist.com/2017/07/15/where-are-you-from-r... .

dragonwriter 6y ago

> What on earth does it mean to "out" a trans person? Typically, it means to publicly reveal, when this is not welcome by the subject, the gender-socially-ascribed-at-birth (usually, on the basis of external genitalia) of a person whose gender identity and public gender presentation are not consistent with that ascribed-at-birth gender. (Though in the case of the legislation at issue, it generally goes beyond that kind of outing to also include forcibly ascribing the gender-ascribed-at-birth and regulating substantive behavior and options on the basis of that ascribed gender.)

ReactiveJelly 6y ago

Unlike with cis gay people, there's two unrelated ways a trans person can be "in the closet": - You haven't told anyone that you're transitioning, and Eve the attacker tells Alice and Bob. You weren't ready to tell Bob, and you never intended to tell Alice. Eve has outed you as trans to Alice and Bob. - The public part of your transition is complete, you can pass for cis, and you don't want people to know you're trans. Eve tells Alice and Bob that you're trans. You weren't ready to tell Bob, and you never intended to tell Alice. Eve has outed you as trans to Alice and Bob. The 2nd kind of closet is often called "going stealth". Some sources says it used to be called "woodworking", i.e. blending into the woodwork. Some people call the 1st kind "stealth", but I think "closet" is less ambiguous. > I can't hide my trans status from my parents or a school that I attended pre-transition. This is true. I came out at work recently, so almost all of my coworkers know that I'm trans. But there are a few new hires who might not know. It would be impolite for someone to tell a new hire about me, at least without asking me. So for children, the 1st case is probably what they're talking about. If a child is questioning their gender identity, it's not kind to out them to anyone. They will probably be bullied. It's the gender identity equivalent of gossiping about Alice having a one-night stand with Eve. Is it wrong to bully her about it? Of course. But as long as the bullies exist, it's also wrong to gossip about it and expose her to danger. Defense in depth means don't bully anyone, and also don't open them up to bullying.

ouid 6y ago
alright, but a rule requiring social transitioning before medically transitioning would have neither of those effects, so to argue that it would out people is disingenuous. I do not agree with that rule as a law, for the record, but it does make sense as an ethical policy among doctors.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
Why is it impolite? People talk amongst themselves. Gossip is not bullying. Sincere query.