5 ms·

It's a problem, because it doesn't end here. Even if you make your own service, once your "club" gains too much traction you are still going to be deplatformed

by ttt0 6y ago

It's a problem, because it doesn't end here. Even if you make your own service, once your "club" gains too much traction you are still going to be deplatformed by domain registers, DDoS protection services, payment processors etc. It's also a free speech issue. The main purpose of free speech is the ability to criticize your government and social media have obviously a huge influence on elections. As we move towards more and more lockdowns, where you won't be even able to just go out and speak your mind to the public, the social media will become the only way of communication. If you are not allowed to speak freely on those platforms and be able to actually make a change, it will render the free speech laws completely useless and you might as well repeal them at this point. Free speech laws should apply to social media. You might not agree with the ideas that are being censored right now, but sooner or later they will come after you too.

BlueTemplar 6y ago
We might need an intermediary status between media and hosting, where they are allowed to censor content, but take some responsibility for that (like if you hit someone stealing something), especially if they are a for profit company.
ntsplnkv2 6y ago
This is contradictory. If you tell Twitter what its platform can/can't support you are violating its freedom of speech. The 1st amendment applies to the government restricting speech - not private corporations. In the 1800s not everyone had a newspaper to spread their ideas. That is not a violation of freedom of speech for the ones who can't afford a newspaper. They aren't entitled to a platform - they're entitled to the government not restricting their platform. What about a property on a busy road - a sign there has more impact than a sign at a house off the beaten path. You're essentially arguing that because that property has more visibility, it is unfair to the other who doesn't have that same location. This just isn't how the constitution works.
- ttt0 6y ago
  For example in EU banks are legally required to provide you a basic service. I don't see how this is contradictory to freedom of speech. > What about a property on a busy road - a sign there has more impact than a sign at a house off the beaten path. You're essentially arguing that because that property has more visibility, it is unfair to the other who doesn't have that same location. In US there were a couple of court cases that ruled that free speech applies to places that are technically private. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._Robins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R... And if I'm not mistaken, you already have plenty of FCC regulations regarding means of communications like TV, radio and internet, that probably could be construed as violations of either freedom of speech or freedom of association. We could spend all day arguing about legalities and whether it's constitutional or not. Under current laws it is in fact exactly as you say, but this is a huge problem. I live in one of post-soviet countries, so it shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of people here, including me, are against socialism. But I have to admit that the left has a point. Or at the very least had a point, since I sometimes encounter people who will say how capitalists are evil and then proceed to explain how social media are a private property and corporations are free to do whatever they want with them. If we don't do something about this, we might very soon find out how truly dystopian capitalism can be.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    Providing a service to fit the definition of a unit of society is not the same as forcing endorsement of a particular point of view, and even so, there is no law requiring social media from offering fair POVs. You're arguing for a fairness doctrine - e.g. Fox News should be forced to show the other side an equal amount of time.
    - ttt0 6y ago
      That's a really weird way of looking at this. HN is not endorsing my point of view by letting me publish comments here. Isn't that what the Section 230 is all about, by the way? I know there is no law preventing social media from censoring people. If there was, we wouldn't be arguing about this right now. What I'm saying is that free speech should be extended to social media.
throwaway29399 6y ago
> once your "club" gains too much traction you are still going to be deplatformed by domain registers, DDoS protection services, payment processors etc. I follow the topic carefully and I've never seen domains being taken down just because people were simply discussing conservative politics. Hosting platforms love getting paid and tend to block extremist "clubs" like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_(website) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_(website)
- ttt0 6y ago
  Wasn't gab kicked off from their domain registrar? I don't know much about Parler, but going just by what people are saying, it seems just like twitter but for conservatives, so it's no good either. Not sure what gab is now up to, but from what I remember, it was just a free speech site. They had some rules like no doxing, but other than that they never banned anyone for anything. You could say anything you want no matter what your politics are, as long as you didn't violate the law. So the issue for me is not really "conservative clubs", but that you will get targeted by the companies up the food chain, just by allowing free speech to be exercised.
gameswithgo 6y ago
Maybe if everyone from reddit to domain registras thinks you are out of your mind and dangerous, you should either consider some self reflection, or spend your own money to distribute your message.
- ttt0 6y ago
  I often do self reflection and I still think I am right. Censorship is dangerous. I know, crazy thing to say, right?

by ttt0 6y ago

BlueTemplar 6y ago

We might need an intermediary status between media and hosting, where they are allowed to censor content, but take some responsibility for that (like if you hit someone stealing something), especially if they are a for profit company.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago

This is contradictory. If you tell Twitter what its platform can/can't support you are violating its freedom of speech. The 1st amendment applies to the government restricting speech - not private corporations. In the 1800s not everyone had a newspaper to spread their ideas. That is not a violation of freedom of speech for the ones who can't afford a newspaper. They aren't entitled to a platform - they're entitled to the government not restricting their platform. What about a property on a busy road - a sign there has more impact than a sign at a house off the beaten path. You're essentially arguing that because that property has more visibility, it is unfair to the other who doesn't have that same location. This just isn't how the constitution works.

ttt0 6y ago
For example in EU banks are legally required to provide you a basic service. I don't see how this is contradictory to freedom of speech. > What about a property on a busy road - a sign there has more impact than a sign at a house off the beaten path. You're essentially arguing that because that property has more visibility, it is unfair to the other who doesn't have that same location. In US there were a couple of court cases that ruled that free speech applies to places that are technically private. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._Robins https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R... And if I'm not mistaken, you already have plenty of FCC regulations regarding means of communications like TV, radio and internet, that probably could be construed as violations of either freedom of speech or freedom of association. We could spend all day arguing about legalities and whether it's constitutional or not. Under current laws it is in fact exactly as you say, but this is a huge problem. I live in one of post-soviet countries, so it shouldn't be a surprise that a lot of people here, including me, are against socialism. But I have to admit that the left has a point. Or at the very least had a point, since I sometimes encounter people who will say how capitalists are evil and then proceed to explain how social media are a private property and corporations are free to do whatever they want with them. If we don't do something about this, we might very soon find out how truly dystopian capitalism can be.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  Providing a service to fit the definition of a unit of society is not the same as forcing endorsement of a particular point of view, and even so, there is no law requiring social media from offering fair POVs. You're arguing for a fairness doctrine - e.g. Fox News should be forced to show the other side an equal amount of time.
  - ttt0 6y ago
    That's a really weird way of looking at this. HN is not endorsing my point of view by letting me publish comments here. Isn't that what the Section 230 is all about, by the way? I know there is no law preventing social media from censoring people. If there was, we wouldn't be arguing about this right now. What I'm saying is that free speech should be extended to social media.

throwaway29399 6y ago

> once your "club" gains too much traction you are still going to be deplatformed by domain registers, DDoS protection services, payment processors etc. I follow the topic carefully and I've never seen domains being taken down just because people were simply discussing conservative politics. Hosting platforms love getting paid and tend to block extremist "clubs" like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_(website) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormfront_(website)

ttt0 6y ago
Wasn't gab kicked off from their domain registrar? I don't know much about Parler, but going just by what people are saying, it seems just like twitter but for conservatives, so it's no good either. Not sure what gab is now up to, but from what I remember, it was just a free speech site. They had some rules like no doxing, but other than that they never banned anyone for anything. You could say anything you want no matter what your politics are, as long as you didn't violate the law. So the issue for me is not really "conservative clubs", but that you will get targeted by the companies up the food chain, just by allowing free speech to be exercised.

gameswithgo 6y ago

Maybe if everyone from reddit to domain registras thinks you are out of your mind and dangerous, you should either consider some self reflection, or spend your own money to distribute your message.

ttt0 6y ago
I often do self reflection and I still think I am right. Censorship is dangerous. I know, crazy thing to say, right?