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I got my pinephone (Manjaro) last week and tried all OSs there are for it; I really love the idea of having a real Linux device in my pocket (that's why I have

I got my pinephone (Manjaro) last week and tried all OSs there are for it; I really love the idea of having a real Linux device in my pocket (that's why I have the Pandora, Pyra + GPD pocket 1 as well); it is such a difference having full control and being able to change whatever how you work instead of having large corps decide. Also shows, by the 'missing apps' between ecosystems, how much we need replacements for all the proprietary social sites, chat, collaboration etc. However there is a lot that needs to be done software wise, which made me think that if I want to have a solid Linux device that really fits in my pocket like a phone with actual speech and 4g(5g?) then a lot more people will need to help with this. I don't know how that will happen, but, like I did with the Pandora, with this device I will try to work with the community in reporting and fixing bugs. For now, this is a device for people who like freedom of their device (well, at least as much as we can get with modern circuits) and who like to tinker. I would recommend it to those people who envision an open source phone in their future; we need to help + stimulate the people trying. Edit: it is trivial to try all OSs, so whatever you buy, you can switch rather rapidly and take them all for a spin.

izacus 6y ago
I wonder if making a shell on top of Android (for compatiblity with other devices) would make community larger and get more software contributions. Not sure how technically feasible it is though.
- slothtrop 6y ago
  Maybe, though in the worst case there's Anbox emulation.
- mook 6y ago
  Wasn't FirefoxOS (the defunct phone one, now there's the KaiOS fork) sort of like that? I believe Gonk took some parts from Android, but haven't dug into it. Given that example, not sure how feasible the app ecosystem is.
  - josteink 6y ago
    FirefoxOS tried to ride on an Android-base to help solve device-support and being able to focus on the user-facing aspects of the platform. As a result they were stuck with a combination of the terrible Android-build system and the complex Firefox build-system. That alone probably wasn't the reason it failed, but it certainly didn't help people who wanted to contribute (like me).
- josteink 6y ago
  > I wonder if making a shell on top of Android (for compatiblity with other devices) would make community larger But then it would just be another Google-phone, based on a Google-controlled codebase. We have enough of those phones and "OSes" already. I respect the Pine64, PinePhone and the surrounding communities for trying to make an actual, real Linux-phone based on a real Linux base. I even bought a PinePhone myself to play with. It's definitely not there yet in terms a full replacement of my iPhone, but at the same time I can see all the pieces starting to come together: It's a real phone, with an open bootloader, running real Linux (with systemd, PulseAudio, whatever your distro rolls with) and a custom shell made for touchscreen phones. It's just what it needs to be. It just lacks some polish, that's all. And the community feels really vibrant, akin to the early Linux hacker-scene you had back in the 90s, where everyone is trying to do their part to help deliver something new and different. For better, it's like a full deja back to those days. I love it!
- squarefoot 6y ago
  Pretty much all Linux installs on Android phones are chroot jails on top of Android. They run at decent speed because everything is native, but they're forced to use Android's kernel and device drivers which are non free, closed and therefore not trustworthy, and cannot protect themselves by malicious Android apps and/or backdoors. I would rather have a truly free and open operating system in which I can set up one or more sandboxes containing all stuff I don't trust (closed apps, Android emulation etc), that is essentially the other way around. The Pinephone ideally is trying to be a step in this direction.
  - qiqitori 6y ago
    > Android's kernel and device drivers which are non free, closed and therefore not trustworthy That's a bit misleading. Android's kernel is Linux which is GPLv2, and thus the device drivers are GPLv2 too. (They could be circumventing the GPL by using shims though.)
  - izacus 6y ago
    I think you perhaps misunderstood me - it's not to replace the PinePhone implementation, but to complement it. Give users the ability to boot PinePhone software to both try it out (so they see it's good enough to replace their current Android phone) and to make filling up the software gaps easier. All while open hardware continues to be developed. Right now, PinePhone development requires a pretty expensive buyin with pretty much no ability to see it ahead of time.
olah_1 6y ago
> then a lot more people will need to help with this. I don't know how that will happen I wonder if community crypto-currency tokens could be used for incentive. See explanation twitter thread here: https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1326313315044192256?s=20 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1326313315044192256?s=20 Really, community tokens could be the basis for a true guild system. The collective community of token holders would represent collective expertise in a specific craft.
- strombofulous 6y ago
  This is a cool idea. It's like stock options for a startup
  - olah_1 6y ago
    Pretty much, yeah. If the software is genuinely high quality and useful, or if it at least has potential, then expertise in it is valuable and worth paying for.
- generalizations 6y ago
  That's a cool idea. I'm usually cynical about that stuff, but this could actually work.
- nwah1 6y ago
  If they want to throw their reputations in the trash pushing get rich quick schemes, they probably would already be doing that instead of all this hard work.
  - olah_1 6y ago
    By your definition, a job is a “get rich quick scheme”.
    - ViViDboarder 6y ago
      No. That’s a get rich slow scheme.
swiley 6y ago
If you want speech install festival just like you would on desktop.
- tluyben2 6y ago
  Sorry! I meant calls, but thank you for the tip ; I did not know that either.
fsflover 6y ago
> For now, this is a device for people who like freedom of their device (well, at least as much as we can get with modern circuits) Librem 5 [0] goes further than that: it's OS is endorsed by the FSF as truly free. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5
- tluyben2 6y ago
  I wanted to try a cheaper phone first to see how I would like it. Thanks for the heads up.
- messe 6y ago
  > it's OS is endorsed by the FSF as truly free. To meet the FSF's definitions of free, they had to make the (still required) proprietary firmware read-only instead of allowing it to be loadable by the user. EDIT: see below.
  - fsflover 6y ago
    It’s not read-only. You can reflash it if it’s really necessary: https://forums.puri.sm/t/does-respects-your-freedom-certification-allow-updating-of-proprietary-firmware/9484/12 https://forums.puri.sm/t/does-respects-your-freedom-certific...
    - messe 6y ago
      Ah, I stand corrected. But it's still a silly distinction. It's utterly bizarre to me that something that a device that allows everything to be modified from the CPU is considered non-free if any of that code is non-free, but if that same non-free code is used on a chip that's only flashable using a more difficult method, the device can be considered freedom respecting.
- m463 6y ago
  unfortunately, librem 5 isn't shipping. it's always a little further out. Hopefully soon.

izacus 6y ago

I wonder if making a shell on top of Android (for compatiblity with other devices) would make community larger and get more software contributions. Not sure how technically feasible it is though.

slothtrop 6y ago
Maybe, though in the worst case there's Anbox emulation.
mook 6y ago
Wasn't FirefoxOS (the defunct phone one, now there's the KaiOS fork) sort of like that? I believe Gonk took some parts from Android, but haven't dug into it. Given that example, not sure how feasible the app ecosystem is.
- josteink 6y ago
  FirefoxOS tried to ride on an Android-base to help solve device-support and being able to focus on the user-facing aspects of the platform. As a result they were stuck with a combination of the terrible Android-build system and the complex Firefox build-system. That alone probably wasn't the reason it failed, but it certainly didn't help people who wanted to contribute (like me).
josteink 6y ago
> I wonder if making a shell on top of Android (for compatiblity with other devices) would make community larger But then it would just be another Google-phone, based on a Google-controlled codebase. We have enough of those phones and "OSes" already. I respect the Pine64, PinePhone and the surrounding communities for trying to make an actual, real Linux-phone based on a real Linux base. I even bought a PinePhone myself to play with. It's definitely not there yet in terms a full replacement of my iPhone, but at the same time I can see all the pieces starting to come together: It's a real phone, with an open bootloader, running real Linux (with systemd, PulseAudio, whatever your distro rolls with) and a custom shell made for touchscreen phones. It's just what it needs to be. It just lacks some polish, that's all. And the community feels really vibrant, akin to the early Linux hacker-scene you had back in the 90s, where everyone is trying to do their part to help deliver something new and different. For better, it's like a full deja back to those days. I love it!
squarefoot 6y ago
Pretty much all Linux installs on Android phones are chroot jails on top of Android. They run at decent speed because everything is native, but they're forced to use Android's kernel and device drivers which are non free, closed and therefore not trustworthy, and cannot protect themselves by malicious Android apps and/or backdoors. I would rather have a truly free and open operating system in which I can set up one or more sandboxes containing all stuff I don't trust (closed apps, Android emulation etc), that is essentially the other way around. The Pinephone ideally is trying to be a step in this direction.
- qiqitori 6y ago
  > Android's kernel and device drivers which are non free, closed and therefore not trustworthy That's a bit misleading. Android's kernel is Linux which is GPLv2, and thus the device drivers are GPLv2 too. (They could be circumventing the GPL by using shims though.)
- izacus 6y ago
  I think you perhaps misunderstood me - it's not to replace the PinePhone implementation, but to complement it. Give users the ability to boot PinePhone software to both try it out (so they see it's good enough to replace their current Android phone) and to make filling up the software gaps easier. All while open hardware continues to be developed. Right now, PinePhone development requires a pretty expensive buyin with pretty much no ability to see it ahead of time.

olah_1 6y ago

> then a lot more people will need to help with this. I don't know how that will happen I wonder if community crypto-currency tokens could be used for incentive. See explanation twitter thread here: https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1326313315044192256?s=20 https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1326313315044192256?s=20 Really, community tokens could be the basis for a true guild system. The collective community of token holders would represent collective expertise in a specific craft.

strombofulous 6y ago
This is a cool idea. It's like stock options for a startup
- olah_1 6y ago
  Pretty much, yeah. If the software is genuinely high quality and useful, or if it at least has potential, then expertise in it is valuable and worth paying for.
generalizations 6y ago
That's a cool idea. I'm usually cynical about that stuff, but this could actually work.
nwah1 6y ago
If they want to throw their reputations in the trash pushing get rich quick schemes, they probably would already be doing that instead of all this hard work.
- olah_1 6y ago
  By your definition, a job is a “get rich quick scheme”.
  - ViViDboarder 6y ago
    No. That’s a get rich slow scheme.

swiley 6y ago

If you want speech install festival just like you would on desktop.

tluyben2 6y ago
Sorry! I meant calls, but thank you for the tip ; I did not know that either.

fsflover 6y ago

> For now, this is a device for people who like freedom of their device (well, at least as much as we can get with modern circuits) Librem 5 [0] goes further than that: it's OS is endorsed by the FSF as truly free. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5

tluyben2 6y ago
I wanted to try a cheaper phone first to see how I would like it. Thanks for the heads up.
messe 6y ago
> it's OS is endorsed by the FSF as truly free. To meet the FSF's definitions of free, they had to make the (still required) proprietary firmware read-only instead of allowing it to be loadable by the user. EDIT: see below.
- fsflover 6y ago
  It’s not read-only. You can reflash it if it’s really necessary: https://forums.puri.sm/t/does-respects-your-freedom-certification-allow-updating-of-proprietary-firmware/9484/12 https://forums.puri.sm/t/does-respects-your-freedom-certific...
  - messe 6y ago
    Ah, I stand corrected. But it's still a silly distinction. It's utterly bizarre to me that something that a device that allows everything to be modified from the CPU is considered non-free if any of that code is non-free, but if that same non-free code is used on a chip that's only flashable using a more difficult method, the device can be considered freedom respecting.
m463 6y ago
unfortunately, librem 5 isn't shipping. it's always a little further out. Hopefully soon.