5 ms·

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every roo

by stinos 6y ago

the electrician didn't understand words like "crosstalk" Can you explain what the problem is? I also run cat5 (or maybe even cat6, don't remember) to every room, most even multiple times, just put it in walls/cailings/whatever worked and all 40 or so sockets work just fine. I turn the switch on, the lights go on, I turn it off, the lights go off. I run a star configuration for switches and light points, where all switches are on 12V DC and use a 'patchboard' to hook them to impulse relays which drive the lights. Still switch on/light on, but you can select which switch does what, easily hook up miltiple switches to multiple light points etc. Not domotica, but still much more dynamic than traditional build-once-change-never.

mikro2nd 6y ago
I'm curious to understand the advantages/benefits of being able to reassign switches/lights. Surely a light/group-of-lights needs a switch/set-of-switches, but once it's done, what's the imperative for change?
- stinos 6y ago
  but once it's done, what's the imperative for change If it's truly done there's no reason for change. However getting there, to what for us is the most optimal configuration, is what was the main incentive for me. The way it is now it requires almost no ahead planning. I.e. for most rooms we had no idea on beforehand how we were going to pupulate them with furniture and which activity we'd do where, so I just went 'cable for lighting in the center, at the side on each wall, and some extra' and then put the switches in sensible places i.e. usually next to room entrance. Then during the next years hook up as needed and adapt if needed. E.g. couple of months ago we needed an extra desk for working form home and one extra for my GF's new hobby, so we just put some desks to a wall and instantly can get a light above it. With a fixed configuration you'd either need to think of that in advance, or use the light centrally in the room which makes you sit in your own shadow. or add lights you just plug in the wall socket but that's extra cable, and especially for desks it's hard to find a suitable one. Also throughout the years I've made small changes here and there to change things like being able to turn on the light in the bathroom from the bedroom, or turn on light in the kitchen from the place where we eat so you don't have to look for th kitchen switch in the dark. Sure those are just nice-to-haves but pretty convenient. I've been and lived in quite a lot of houses where the whole configuration was pretty akward. Though I get some people don't care about that.
- tpxl 6y ago
  You get some things wrong when designing a huge project ahead of time.
WalterBright 6y ago
Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The correct approach is to keep the low voltage wires as far from the A/C as you can, and if they cross, keep the crossing at 90 degrees. Don't run them in parallel unless they are separated by feet (plural). If you have to, you can run them in grounded metal conduit as a shield. I probably went overboard on this, but doing it inadequately meant 60 cycle humming on the phone lines and an utterly ghastly bill to rip the walls up and fix it. He also was installing cat3 (POTS cable) and R59 cable (1970's cable TV stuff). I pulled that all out and threw it in the trash, putting in cat5 (cat5e and cat6 are better, but weren't available then) and quad-shielded RG6 cable. Getting the best cable available cost maybe 20 or 30 dollars more, so it's crazy not to do it. The network and cable speeds have all increased dramatically since I installed it, and the cables have all worked like a champ. Even the cat5 cables are happily carrying gigabit Ethernet. I have a couple plugboards in the basement where all the wires terminate. I did the whole thing for less than a grand. If an electrician had done it, it likely would have been 10 or 20x more.
- hondadriver 6y ago
  Here in The Netherlands and probably other parts of Europe, you are not allowed to run electricity and network or phone cables through the same tubes. Also the number of wires allowed in a single tube is limited. Many houses have concrete walls, floors and ceilings, so you don't run extra tubes easily... Reconfiguring switches is next to impossible and via existing switch wires you can dim/switch the lights but not change colour(temperature). So here the original switches are removed and the connection is bridged (always on) and battery/kinectic powered ZigBee switches control the lights directly, even if the gateway is down.
  - bhickey 6y ago
    Conduit isn't very common in US residential construction. Electricians will generally cut a hole in the drywall, drill a hole in the floor plate and tack the cabling to the framing.
Freak_NL 6y ago
40 sockets is pretty impressive. Running cat-something (I got CAT6) everywhere makes absolute sense though! Especially now that everyone and their dog is working from home, and I live in a typical nineteen-thirties Dutch street with terrace housing, not having to rely on wifi too much is pretty awesome. I think by now I've got rid of all the R59 cable sockets and POTS stuff too except for one POTS socket in the cabinet that holds the fuse box. If anyone ever wants to reintroduce a wired telephone they can just reuse a CAT6 cable, but I doubt this will happen.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  I didn't put any POTS cable in the house, but ran two cat5 cables to each room. One for POTS, the other for network. The configuration is done at the star hub. Cat5 is just fine for POTS. These days, of course, I don't use the POTS much.
- stinos 6y ago
  When I started with that idea a lot of people considered it crazy. But for some jobs I've had the trouble of not having a network in some places was so annoying that I thought: not in my place. For me it totally paid off, it's just convenient to have a proper connection everywhere. Also because we were living in the house during renovations so moved desk multiple times. Granted there are sockets which I haven't actually used yet, but there's equal amounts for which at one point I thought 'damn, so convenient that this socket is here' :). E.g. FM reception here sucks for some stations, now I just carry a little RaspberryPi+speakers mounted on a piece of wood around as 'radio' and can just plug it in in any room. Also if I see the mess some people go through in a brand new house, dealing with wifi repeaters on all floors and sometimes long cables to feed them just to get a signal which is still worse than a fixed line, I think this way is more convenient.

by stinos 6y ago

mikro2nd 6y ago

I'm curious to understand the advantages/benefits of being able to reassign switches/lights. Surely a light/group-of-lights needs a switch/set-of-switches, but once it's done, what's the imperative for change?

stinos 6y ago
but once it's done, what's the imperative for change If it's truly done there's no reason for change. However getting there, to what for us is the most optimal configuration, is what was the main incentive for me. The way it is now it requires almost no ahead planning. I.e. for most rooms we had no idea on beforehand how we were going to pupulate them with furniture and which activity we'd do where, so I just went 'cable for lighting in the center, at the side on each wall, and some extra' and then put the switches in sensible places i.e. usually next to room entrance. Then during the next years hook up as needed and adapt if needed. E.g. couple of months ago we needed an extra desk for working form home and one extra for my GF's new hobby, so we just put some desks to a wall and instantly can get a light above it. With a fixed configuration you'd either need to think of that in advance, or use the light centrally in the room which makes you sit in your own shadow. or add lights you just plug in the wall socket but that's extra cable, and especially for desks it's hard to find a suitable one. Also throughout the years I've made small changes here and there to change things like being able to turn on the light in the bathroom from the bedroom, or turn on light in the kitchen from the place where we eat so you don't have to look for th kitchen switch in the dark. Sure those are just nice-to-haves but pretty convenient. I've been and lived in quite a lot of houses where the whole configuration was pretty akward. Though I get some people don't care about that.
tpxl 6y ago
You get some things wrong when designing a huge project ahead of time.

WalterBright 6y ago

Crosstalk is when two wires are close together, one induces a voltage in the other (it's how transformers work). The trouble with house wiring is if you run a phone line parallel and close to an A/C line, it will induce a 60 cycle hum in the phone line, which will drive you utterly mad. The electrician was installing the cat3 phone wires in the same holes as the A/C wires. It was guaranteed to induce a hum. The correct approach is to keep the low voltage wires as far from the A/C as you can, and if they cross, keep the crossing at 90 degrees. Don't run them in parallel unless they are separated by feet (plural). If you have to, you can run them in grounded metal conduit as a shield. I probably went overboard on this, but doing it inadequately meant 60 cycle humming on the phone lines and an utterly ghastly bill to rip the walls up and fix it. He also was installing cat3 (POTS cable) and R59 cable (1970's cable TV stuff). I pulled that all out and threw it in the trash, putting in cat5 (cat5e and cat6 are better, but weren't available then) and quad-shielded RG6 cable. Getting the best cable available cost maybe 20 or 30 dollars more, so it's crazy not to do it. The network and cable speeds have all increased dramatically since I installed it, and the cables have all worked like a champ. Even the cat5 cables are happily carrying gigabit Ethernet. I have a couple plugboards in the basement where all the wires terminate. I did the whole thing for less than a grand. If an electrician had done it, it likely would have been 10 or 20x more.

hondadriver 6y ago
Here in The Netherlands and probably other parts of Europe, you are not allowed to run electricity and network or phone cables through the same tubes. Also the number of wires allowed in a single tube is limited. Many houses have concrete walls, floors and ceilings, so you don't run extra tubes easily... Reconfiguring switches is next to impossible and via existing switch wires you can dim/switch the lights but not change colour(temperature). So here the original switches are removed and the connection is bridged (always on) and battery/kinectic powered ZigBee switches control the lights directly, even if the gateway is down.
- bhickey 6y ago
  Conduit isn't very common in US residential construction. Electricians will generally cut a hole in the drywall, drill a hole in the floor plate and tack the cabling to the framing.

Freak_NL 6y ago

40 sockets is pretty impressive. Running cat-something (I got CAT6) everywhere makes absolute sense though! Especially now that everyone and their dog is working from home, and I live in a typical nineteen-thirties Dutch street with terrace housing, not having to rely on wifi too much is pretty awesome. I think by now I've got rid of all the R59 cable sockets and POTS stuff too except for one POTS socket in the cabinet that holds the fuse box. If anyone ever wants to reintroduce a wired telephone they can just reuse a CAT6 cable, but I doubt this will happen.

WalterBright 6y ago
I didn't put any POTS cable in the house, but ran two cat5 cables to each room. One for POTS, the other for network. The configuration is done at the star hub. Cat5 is just fine for POTS. These days, of course, I don't use the POTS much.
stinos 6y ago
When I started with that idea a lot of people considered it crazy. But for some jobs I've had the trouble of not having a network in some places was so annoying that I thought: not in my place. For me it totally paid off, it's just convenient to have a proper connection everywhere. Also because we were living in the house during renovations so moved desk multiple times. Granted there are sockets which I haven't actually used yet, but there's equal amounts for which at one point I thought 'damn, so convenient that this socket is here' :). E.g. FM reception here sucks for some stations, now I just carry a little RaspberryPi+speakers mounted on a piece of wood around as 'radio' and can just plug it in in any room. Also if I see the mess some people go through in a brand new house, dealing with wifi repeaters on all floors and sometimes long cables to feed them just to get a signal which is still worse than a fixed line, I think this way is more convenient.