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The racist and antisemitic part of this comment is assuming jewish control over US affairs. The reality is Israel is a neo-colonial state that acts as a nuclear

The racist and antisemitic part of this comment is assuming jewish control over US affairs. The reality is Israel is a neo-colonial state that acts as a nuclear armed forward operating base in the middle east for the US. Without US arms and funds, Israel's militaristic stance would not be possible. As a Jew, I look forward to the day we can end the wars, end funding of an apartheid regime, stop the mistreatment of Palestinians who live in a blockaded prison city, and the attainment of real democracy in the region for every group without imposing a fake version at the point of a US gun. I look forward to the liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq from neocolonial rule. I look forward to a new era when control of oil fields is no longer a matter of geostrategic importance and drilling will incur sanctions by an international body.

haram_masala 6y ago
"Without US arms and funds, Israel's militaristic stance would not be possible." And without intense lobbying by pro-Israeli groups in the US, those arms and funds wouldn't be possible.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  Israel does have a powerful lobby. They are not a complete puppet. They do things for our security state, so they can exert leverage. The US establishment also is fine with Israeli lobbying because they want to maintain that relationship as an outpost and a place they can outsource certain intelligence operations to. It's kind of a virtuous cycle that is very much more dependent on US imperialist designs than it is on Israel.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
My only issue with your point is the UK and France deserve at least some of the "credit" for Israel's status. I always find it absurd that people think Israel is the top of the pyramid. edit Upon second reading, I also object to it being seen as just a "forward operating base." For most of history the region has been highly prized as the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  > the UK and France deserve at least some of the "credit" for Israel's status Definitely. I forget France's influence, but the UK literally granted them the territory without regard for the people that lived there already. > I also object to it being seen as just a "forward operating base." For most of history the region has been highly prized as the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean. Sorry, I was being too simplistic. It is a very valuable geostrategic asset in many ways.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    Still mostly right, just adding on more than anything. France had the smaller role, but the Sykes-Picot agreement is too key to completely ignore them.
colordrops 6y ago
Is it racist or anti-anglo to criticize evangelical control over US affairs? Why is christian influence over the government fair game but not jewish? Just as not all christians are complicit, neither are all jews. It doesn't mean there aren't jewish forces trying to influence the government.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  The difference is stating that the state of Israel (which does not represent all Jews) is trying to influence the government. Evangelical Christians are a subset of Christians that are widely known to be a key voting block for the republican party. I don't think it's anti-semetic to criticize Israel. The thing NOT to do is imply that Israel (or the Jews) operate the US like a puppet state. The idea that jews secretly control the peoples of the world is a trope from nazi propaganda and so it is important to carefully state criticisms so as to not imply that. If the US really were a puppet state, it would be fair to say, but in reality it is rather the reverse. It can be difficult to see that because we do not talk about US imperialism and the neo-colonial goals of the US state security apparatus. As I stated in another comment, Israel lobbies the US for favors and often they are granted because our governments wish to maintain a security relationship. It can be sometimes difficult to thread that needle, but it is possible to do in good faith. The Israel lobby does attack people who make criticisms in good faith though... which is permitted because if people saw Israel as an apartheid state, the US would be pressured to terminate our security relationship. In summary, this is a complex issue. To be honest, Israel's apartheid behavior and militarism is giving fuel to hate by muddying the waters so much. If they would quit that shit, it would make life a lot easier for every honest person trying to talk about these issues.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    > operate the US like a puppet state. The idea that jews secretly control the peoples of the world is a trope from nazi propaganda Woah now this is much further than anyone in this thread has claimed or stated. Fear of social ostracization is not reason enough to avoid discussing the truth. Just pointing out the truth that jews form a "key voting block" and lobbyist group is not an endorsement of any more encompassing and ungrounded theory or judgment against them. It is bigoted and prejudicial to treat jews differently from christians and muslims, period point blank.
YinLuck- 6y ago
As a Jew, I am sure you know at least some American Jews who put Israeli interests above or at least parallel with American interests, don't you? I'm a first generation immigrant who barely speaks their 'mother' tongue, but I still have a greater affinity for my parent's birth nation than I do for the USA. If I were a billionaire or otherwise influential, I would 100% use that power to further the interests of my mother country, even at the expense of the USA. Jews are just better educated and better organized so they accomplish what I and many other ethnic/religious minorities would undoubtedly attempt in their position. I do not think it is antisemitic to point this out. I would argue its more hypocritical rather than racist of other minorities in the USA to criticize of American Jews over this issue. As for the "native" American Whites, I cannot comment.

haram_masala 6y ago

"Without US arms and funds, Israel's militaristic stance would not be possible." And without intense lobbying by pro-Israeli groups in the US, those arms and funds wouldn't be possible.

tehjoker 6y ago
Israel does have a powerful lobby. They are not a complete puppet. They do things for our security state, so they can exert leverage. The US establishment also is fine with Israeli lobbying because they want to maintain that relationship as an outpost and a place they can outsource certain intelligence operations to. It's kind of a virtuous cycle that is very much more dependent on US imperialist designs than it is on Israel.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

My only issue with your point is the UK and France deserve at least some of the "credit" for Israel's status. I always find it absurd that people think Israel is the top of the pyramid. edit Upon second reading, I also object to it being seen as just a "forward operating base." For most of history the region has been highly prized as the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean.

tehjoker 6y ago
> the UK and France deserve at least some of the "credit" for Israel's status Definitely. I forget France's influence, but the UK literally granted them the territory without regard for the people that lived there already. > I also object to it being seen as just a "forward operating base." For most of history the region has been highly prized as the crossroads of Asia, Africa, and the Mediterranean. Sorry, I was being too simplistic. It is a very valuable geostrategic asset in many ways.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  Still mostly right, just adding on more than anything. France had the smaller role, but the Sykes-Picot agreement is too key to completely ignore them.

colordrops 6y ago

Is it racist or anti-anglo to criticize evangelical control over US affairs? Why is christian influence over the government fair game but not jewish? Just as not all christians are complicit, neither are all jews. It doesn't mean there aren't jewish forces trying to influence the government.

tehjoker 6y ago
The difference is stating that the state of Israel (which does not represent all Jews) is trying to influence the government. Evangelical Christians are a subset of Christians that are widely known to be a key voting block for the republican party. I don't think it's anti-semetic to criticize Israel. The thing NOT to do is imply that Israel (or the Jews) operate the US like a puppet state. The idea that jews secretly control the peoples of the world is a trope from nazi propaganda and so it is important to carefully state criticisms so as to not imply that. If the US really were a puppet state, it would be fair to say, but in reality it is rather the reverse. It can be difficult to see that because we do not talk about US imperialism and the neo-colonial goals of the US state security apparatus. As I stated in another comment, Israel lobbies the US for favors and often they are granted because our governments wish to maintain a security relationship. It can be sometimes difficult to thread that needle, but it is possible to do in good faith. The Israel lobby does attack people who make criticisms in good faith though... which is permitted because if people saw Israel as an apartheid state, the US would be pressured to terminate our security relationship. In summary, this is a complex issue. To be honest, Israel's apartheid behavior and militarism is giving fuel to hate by muddying the waters so much. If they would quit that shit, it would make life a lot easier for every honest person trying to talk about these issues.
- colordrops 6y ago
  > operate the US like a puppet state. The idea that jews secretly control the peoples of the world is a trope from nazi propaganda Woah now this is much further than anyone in this thread has claimed or stated. Fear of social ostracization is not reason enough to avoid discussing the truth. Just pointing out the truth that jews form a "key voting block" and lobbyist group is not an endorsement of any more encompassing and ungrounded theory or judgment against them. It is bigoted and prejudicial to treat jews differently from christians and muslims, period point blank.

YinLuck- 6y ago

As a Jew, I am sure you know at least some American Jews who put Israeli interests above or at least parallel with American interests, don't you? I'm a first generation immigrant who barely speaks their 'mother' tongue, but I still have a greater affinity for my parent's birth nation than I do for the USA. If I were a billionaire or otherwise influential, I would 100% use that power to further the interests of my mother country, even at the expense of the USA. Jews are just better educated and better organized so they accomplish what I and many other ethnic/religious minorities would undoubtedly attempt in their position. I do not think it is antisemitic to point this out. I would argue its more hypocritical rather than racist of other minorities in the USA to criticize of American Jews over this issue. As for the "native" American Whites, I cannot comment.