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America is a weird place. They bring the bill. You put your credit card in the bill. A waiter comes and takes it then brings it back and after all that you have

America is a weird place. They bring the bill. You put your credit card in the bill. A waiter comes and takes it then brings it back and after all that you have to enter the tip amount. In Australia they bring the Eftpos machine to your table and I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to touch your card.

leetcrew 6y ago
it's really not such a big deal. if I'm in a hurry, I just give them the card and they come back with a receipt to sign. if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback. I think this is more of a cultural thing than anything. if americans are in a rush, we get takeout or go somewhere that doesn't have full table service. I think the "credit card ritual" is usually just a way to show they are not rushing you out the door. something to understand about america: in general the protections for ordinary folks are pretty bad, but the act of paying for a good/service is sacred. if you (or one of your employees) fuck over a customer, they have ample remedies against you.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > I just give them the card Pretty sure you're explicitly not supposed to do this... Doesn't it have everything needed to make online purchases printed on it? What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon?
  - cnasc 6y ago
    > What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon? Most people don’t want to go to jail after their fraudulent purchase is quickly flagged
    - asciident 6y ago
      It's hard to track down. They could just write down your credit card number, name, expiration, and security code. Then use it a month later, at which point you have already been to several restaurants and handed people your card many times. And you don't know if the card was taken in some other way like a online retail hack.
      - nemo44x 6y ago
        It’s not too difficult for the credit card companies to pin this down. Basic graph algorithms on their datasets of transactions detect this pretty quickly. And these are running constantly trying to detect fraud ASAP. Problematic businesses can lose their credit card privileges too.
        zbentley 6y ago
        Those algorithms can be very good at detecting fraudulent transactions. However, I'm unfamiliar with systems designed to isolate the origin of the fraud. It's not hard trace a stolen card number to a dump of cards sold on the dark web, or the identity of a person using it after the theft, but it is quite hard to figure out how that person came into possession of the card. My subjective impression is that first-party theft + usage of stolen payment credentials is rare--they're usually passed along (sold) to someone else.
        nemo44x 6y ago
        In a single isolated incident then yes, it is difficult. However many thrives get greedy and don’t realize it’s fairly easy to identify the point of sale where fraudulent activity originated.
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    maybe there's something like this buried in the fine print, but I don't think anyone in the US worries about this. I certainly don't. the usual way a transaction goes is you hand the employee your card and they swipe it for you. in any case, it makes no difference whether you wait to get the receipt first for a meal. either way, you are handing them the card and they are swiping it outside your field of view. credit card issuers heavily favor the customer in disputes. lots of people unknowingly make chargebacks in situations where it's actually not legal to do so. it still gets processed, the customer gets their money back, and the merchant eats a punitive fee.
  - c22 6y ago
    What stops the waiter from putting sedatives in your food and then taking all the cash from your wallet when you pass out? At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you. The waiter is too busy putting in other orders and bussing tables to write down all your card details (and I guess social engineer your billing zip code?) I imagine most people who make their living from credit card fraud would rather not spend their days working in a restaurant.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you. But... you don't have to just trust as you say... we already have technology that means you don't have to let them have your card at all. Plus isn't taking the card away from you a lot slower even if it wasn't also less safe? What's the advantages?!
  - paul_f 6y ago
    Fraud detection has gotten really good, the specific restaurant and even the waiter can be identified if they do this regularly.
- gnicholas 6y ago
  > if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback. It's not a huge deal if they run your card for the wrong amount, as you say it can be fixed by AMEX. But if they skim your card and start using it days/weeks later, it's hard to pin down where the fraud started. And you probably have to replace your card, and update the card for vendors that you use auto billpay with.
snarfy 6y ago
80% of all credit credit card fraud in the US happens at bars and restaurants, and it's because of that ritual. It's why I always pay with cash at restaurants and bars.
- ryanlol 6y ago
  This sounds impossible given the industrial scale at which PoS malware and the likes operate.
senectus1 6y ago
Its not illegal, Its in the banks fine print that states that you will not allow another to control your card. If you do that and it gets abused the bank wont cover you, you'll be liable to pay up whatever the abuse was.
- jjav 6y ago
  That's not true and credit cards are one of the few cases where the fine print does not matter. That's because by regulation you (the consumer) will not be liable for credit card fraud if they steal the number and other info and use it elsewhere. If they physically steal the card and use it elsewhere your max liability per regulation is $50. Regardless of fine print these are the max limits of your loss. That's why nobody worries about it. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unauthorized-credit-debit-card-charges-29654.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unauthorized-credit-...

leetcrew 6y ago

it's really not such a big deal. if I'm in a hurry, I just give them the card and they come back with a receipt to sign. if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback. I think this is more of a cultural thing than anything. if americans are in a rush, we get takeout or go somewhere that doesn't have full table service. I think the "credit card ritual" is usually just a way to show they are not rushing you out the door. something to understand about america: in general the protections for ordinary folks are pretty bad, but the act of paying for a good/service is sacred. if you (or one of your employees) fuck over a customer, they have ample remedies against you.

chrisseaton 6y ago
> I just give them the card Pretty sure you're explicitly not supposed to do this... Doesn't it have everything needed to make online purchases printed on it? What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon?
- cnasc 6y ago
  > What stops the waiter or waitress using all the info on Amazon? Most people don’t want to go to jail after their fraudulent purchase is quickly flagged
  - asciident 6y ago
    It's hard to track down. They could just write down your credit card number, name, expiration, and security code. Then use it a month later, at which point you have already been to several restaurants and handed people your card many times. And you don't know if the card was taken in some other way like a online retail hack.
    - nemo44x 6y ago
      It’s not too difficult for the credit card companies to pin this down. Basic graph algorithms on their datasets of transactions detect this pretty quickly. And these are running constantly trying to detect fraud ASAP. Problematic businesses can lose their credit card privileges too.
      - zbentley 6y ago
        Those algorithms can be very good at detecting fraudulent transactions. However, I'm unfamiliar with systems designed to isolate the origin of the fraud. It's not hard trace a stolen card number to a dump of cards sold on the dark web, or the identity of a person using it after the theft, but it is quite hard to figure out how that person came into possession of the card. My subjective impression is that first-party theft + usage of stolen payment credentials is rare--they're usually passed along (sold) to someone else.
        nemo44x 6y ago
        In a single isolated incident then yes, it is difficult. However many thrives get greedy and don’t realize it’s fairly easy to identify the point of sale where fraudulent activity originated.
- leetcrew 6y ago
  maybe there's something like this buried in the fine print, but I don't think anyone in the US worries about this. I certainly don't. the usual way a transaction goes is you hand the employee your card and they swipe it for you. in any case, it makes no difference whether you wait to get the receipt first for a meal. either way, you are handing them the card and they are swiping it outside your field of view. credit card issuers heavily favor the customer in disputes. lots of people unknowingly make chargebacks in situations where it's actually not legal to do so. it still gets processed, the customer gets their money back, and the merchant eats a punitive fee.
- c22 6y ago
  What stops the waiter from putting sedatives in your food and then taking all the cash from your wallet when you pass out? At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you. The waiter is too busy putting in other orders and bussing tables to write down all your card details (and I guess social engineer your billing zip code?) I imagine most people who make their living from credit card fraud would rather not spend their days working in a restaurant.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > At a certain point you just have to trust that most people aren't trying to scam or rob you. But... you don't have to just trust as you say... we already have technology that means you don't have to let them have your card at all. Plus isn't taking the card away from you a lot slower even if it wasn't also less safe? What's the advantages?!
- paul_f 6y ago
  Fraud detection has gotten really good, the specific restaurant and even the waiter can be identified if they do this regularly.
gnicholas 6y ago
> if there's any issue, I'm confident amex will be happy to process my chargeback. It's not a huge deal if they run your card for the wrong amount, as you say it can be fixed by AMEX. But if they skim your card and start using it days/weeks later, it's hard to pin down where the fraud started. And you probably have to replace your card, and update the card for vendors that you use auto billpay with.

snarfy 6y ago

80% of all credit credit card fraud in the US happens at bars and restaurants, and it's because of that ritual. It's why I always pay with cash at restaurants and bars.

ryanlol 6y ago
This sounds impossible given the industrial scale at which PoS malware and the likes operate.

senectus1 6y ago

Its not illegal, Its in the banks fine print that states that you will not allow another to control your card. If you do that and it gets abused the bank wont cover you, you'll be liable to pay up whatever the abuse was.

jjav 6y ago
That's not true and credit cards are one of the few cases where the fine print does not matter. That's because by regulation you (the consumer) will not be liable for credit card fraud if they steal the number and other info and use it elsewhere. If they physically steal the card and use it elsewhere your max liability per regulation is $50. Regardless of fine print these are the max limits of your loss. That's why nobody worries about it. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unauthorized-credit-debit-card-charges-29654.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unauthorized-credit-...