4 ms·

> Simply not feeling you must deal with the situation right now. I can see that helping in some situations, but how does that help when the situation really is

by Natsu 6y ago

> Simply not feeling you must deal with the situation right now. I can see that helping in some situations, but how does that help when the situation really is urgent? Say you have someone who is violent and irrational due to drug intoxication and they need medical aid or they'll die, yet it's not safe to provide that. What is the answer in that case?

0_____0 6y ago
not the 'official' answer here but if they're that far gone on drugs eventually something will happen where they'll either tire themselves out or lose consciousness.
xxpor 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1JXhSYfLNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1JXhSYfLNE I'm only half joking. In all of the recent cases that have blown up in the US though, this was never the issue. The issue was the situation escalated way beyond where it should have. George Floyd was being arrested for using a supposedly counterfeit $20 bill. Maybe they could have just let him run. I'm sure the US economy won't be ruined by there being an extra $20 in circulation. In the EMT case, I think we have to think about the alternative outcomes. If the EMTs can't help because the person is irrationally violent due to drugs, and the EMTs can't restrain them, I don't really see why calling the cops would make the situation any better. All they're doing is providing more hands, which could be done by simply having more EMTs. If they have a gun, then call the police. If they don't, they're unrestrainable, and you can clear out members of the the public, just let them be. The only other options simply make the situation worse for the person. Even using a taser in that situation can cause a heart attack.
- claytongulick 6y ago
  > I'm sure the US economy won't be ruined by there being an extra $20 in circulation In aggregate it would be.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    No amount of "arrest random dude on the street with a potentially counterfeit $20" would address a systematic issue endangering the us economy. It's like thinking you'll win the war on drugs by arresting weed smokers, except even less effective
    - shard972 6y ago
      But he was a drug dealer as well not just a "weed smoker". He died from an overdose of the drugs he was selling so waving this all away by saying there is no effect in looking the other way to violent crack dealers who are printing their own money is not a winning argument sorry.
avianlyric 6y ago
I’m curious to understand why you think introducing a gun into this situation is going to make it any better? We know from plenty of examples that in the scenario you describe there’s a high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police, and probably dead. We know police don’t have the training or the tools to handle this scenario well. I don’t see how brining in people with better training could be a detriment. Worse case you ended up back where you started, the “violent and irrational” person ends up dead. Best case they successfully deescalate and render appropriate treatment, saving their life. Not sure where the downside is.
- hnlurker 6y ago
  Just because there have been high profile cases which fit the narrative of what you already believe doesn't mean that that is an accurate picture of reality. The data simply do not comport with the position you are advocating. Here's some old (2005) data: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=653 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=653 - 20% of people in US had contact with police in the year. - 9/10 people reported police acted properly - 44 million people with interactions, only 1% of those had violent conflict involved with the interaction, that's 440 thousand incidents Hell, even the left-leaning WaPo tried to use data to buttress their/your argument and it's just plain embarrassing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic... - 1000 people shot by police in 2019 - they actually removed the numbers for unarmed, because it was so dismal for their message - less than 50 "unarmed" black people killed by police in 2019 Take an honest look at these numbers and then please try again to justify your position about how there's a "high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police" because by the light of the data you're living in a fantasy land.
  - avianlyric 6y ago
    I guess my claim of "high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police" is hyperbolic. But then my next question is, what does a police officer bring to the table other than a gun? What unique skill and tools does a police officer have that could help resolve such a scenario peacefully, that wouldn't also be available to someone specially trained in dealing with mental health issues?

by Natsu 6y ago

0_____0 6y ago

not the 'official' answer here but if they're that far gone on drugs eventually something will happen where they'll either tire themselves out or lose consciousness.

xxpor 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1JXhSYfLNE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1JXhSYfLNE I'm only half joking. In all of the recent cases that have blown up in the US though, this was never the issue. The issue was the situation escalated way beyond where it should have. George Floyd was being arrested for using a supposedly counterfeit $20 bill. Maybe they could have just let him run. I'm sure the US economy won't be ruined by there being an extra $20 in circulation. In the EMT case, I think we have to think about the alternative outcomes. If the EMTs can't help because the person is irrationally violent due to drugs, and the EMTs can't restrain them, I don't really see why calling the cops would make the situation any better. All they're doing is providing more hands, which could be done by simply having more EMTs. If they have a gun, then call the police. If they don't, they're unrestrainable, and you can clear out members of the the public, just let them be. The only other options simply make the situation worse for the person. Even using a taser in that situation can cause a heart attack.

claytongulick 6y ago
> I'm sure the US economy won't be ruined by there being an extra $20 in circulation In aggregate it would be.
- joshuamorton 6y ago
  No amount of "arrest random dude on the street with a potentially counterfeit $20" would address a systematic issue endangering the us economy. It's like thinking you'll win the war on drugs by arresting weed smokers, except even less effective
  - shard972 6y ago
    But he was a drug dealer as well not just a "weed smoker". He died from an overdose of the drugs he was selling so waving this all away by saying there is no effect in looking the other way to violent crack dealers who are printing their own money is not a winning argument sorry.

avianlyric 6y ago

I’m curious to understand why you think introducing a gun into this situation is going to make it any better? We know from plenty of examples that in the scenario you describe there’s a high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police, and probably dead. We know police don’t have the training or the tools to handle this scenario well. I don’t see how brining in people with better training could be a detriment. Worse case you ended up back where you started, the “violent and irrational” person ends up dead. Best case they successfully deescalate and render appropriate treatment, saving their life. Not sure where the downside is.

hnlurker 6y ago
Just because there have been high profile cases which fit the narrative of what you already believe doesn't mean that that is an accurate picture of reality. The data simply do not comport with the position you are advocating. Here's some old (2005) data: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=653 https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=653 - 20% of people in US had contact with police in the year. - 9/10 people reported police acted properly - 44 million people with interactions, only 1% of those had violent conflict involved with the interaction, that's 440 thousand incidents Hell, even the left-leaning WaPo tried to use data to buttress their/your argument and it's just plain embarrassing: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic... - 1000 people shot by police in 2019 - they actually removed the numbers for unarmed, because it was so dismal for their message - less than 50 "unarmed" black people killed by police in 2019 Take an honest look at these numbers and then please try again to justify your position about how there's a "high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police" because by the light of the data you're living in a fantasy land.
- avianlyric 6y ago
  I guess my claim of "high chance that the individual will end up shot by the police" is hyperbolic. But then my next question is, what does a police officer bring to the table other than a gun? What unique skill and tools does a police officer have that could help resolve such a scenario peacefully, that wouldn't also be available to someone specially trained in dealing with mental health issues?