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Well for Elijah McClain it was either given after police suffocated him or directly contributed to his cardiac arrest. He apparently was restrained when it was

by Klinky 6y ago

Well for Elijah McClain it was either given after police suffocated him or directly contributed to his cardiac arrest. He apparently was restrained when it was delivered. This does not seem to jive with what you're saying. Were they planning to extra kill him if the Ketamine wasn't there?

giantg2 6y ago
He can struggle while restrained, severely injuring himself, and even to the point of killing himself. Handcuffs are temporary restraints and a struggling individual can severely hurt themself or defeat them. Also, this scenario does jive with what I'm saying. Ketamine is generally safe. Would you rather have a shot of ketamine, mechanical disablement (multiple broken bones), or a shot of 9mm? These officers could have moved higher up the force continuum without the ketamine, even killing him in other ways (intentionally or accidentally). Are you saying tasers should never be used also? I believe the vascular restriction (that they shouldn't have used) is the reason he was brain dead.
- Klinky 6y ago
  You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained. I am not sure how Ketamine is at all a hero here, or helped provide an alternative to save Elijah McClain from excessive force by the police. If anything it may have complicated his chances of resuscitation, or possibly further contributed to his death. Forcible injection is up there with taser and pepper spray. I don't think anyone wants to be forcibly injected with an unknown substance. When Elijah said he's different, perhaps they could have asked how he's different? Is he autistic, does he suffer from anxiety and panic attacks? Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    "You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained." Pretty sure the ketamine was before cardiac arrest and brain death. Isn't that the claim - the ketamine caused those issues... "Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem." What mindset is that? What are you suggesting as an alternative once someone has started fighting, (reportedly) grabbing for a weapon, and continuing to struggle once restrained? It would be great if we had video to confirm that the injection was justified in this specific case. I would have also liked to see what the actions were leading up to the encounter.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      I think some of the confusion is people saying the hold killed him, but he appears to actually have regained consciousness after the hold, and was then given Ketamine, then shortly after the administration of Ketamine he went into cardiac arrest. If he was actually killed by the chokehold, then no way should someone be injecting Ketamine into someone unconscious or without pulse, especially under the guise of them resisting or being a threat. If he lost his pulse shortly after being administered too high a dose of Ketamine, then that kinda indicates Ketamine could have been a cause or contributed. Regarding mindset, while Elijah did resist, the transcript suggests he was eventually compliant and pleading with officers. > I can't breathe. I have my ID right here. My name is Elijah McClain. That's my house. I was just going home. I'm an introvert. I'm just different. That's all. I'm so sorry. I have no gun. I don't do that stuff. I don't do any fighting. Why are you attacking me? I don't even kill flies! I don't eat meat! But I don't judge people, I don't judge people who do eat meat. Forgive me. All I was trying to do was become better. I will do it. I will do anything. Sacrifice my identity, I'll do it. You all are phenomenal. You are beautiful and I love you. Try to forgive me. I'm a mood Gemini. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Ow, that really hurt! You are all very strong. Teamwork makes the dream work. Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do that. I just can't breathe correctly. He was on the ground for an extended period of time and threatened with dogs. An officer determined his "need" for Ketamine before emergency medical personnel arrived, not the medical personnel themselves. The medical personnel then gave him overdose based on his actual body weight. The police tunnel visioned into the guy being whacked out on drugs, completely ignoring his pleas and explanations, and the medical personnel were complicit in unquestionably following orders of the officers and then administered an incorrect dosage of Ketamine. Police should consider they might be dealing with someone neurodivergent, that someone "acting suspiciously" might just be anxious or panicking, and may not actually be a criminal or on drugs. Fight or flight and adrenaline are a hell of a combo on their own.

by Klinky 6y ago

giantg2 6y ago

He can struggle while restrained, severely injuring himself, and even to the point of killing himself. Handcuffs are temporary restraints and a struggling individual can severely hurt themself or defeat them. Also, this scenario does jive with what I'm saying. Ketamine is generally safe. Would you rather have a shot of ketamine, mechanical disablement (multiple broken bones), or a shot of 9mm? These officers could have moved higher up the force continuum without the ketamine, even killing him in other ways (intentionally or accidentally). Are you saying tasers should never be used also? I believe the vascular restriction (that they shouldn't have used) is the reason he was brain dead.

Klinky 6y ago
You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained. I am not sure how Ketamine is at all a hero here, or helped provide an alternative to save Elijah McClain from excessive force by the police. If anything it may have complicated his chances of resuscitation, or possibly further contributed to his death. Forcible injection is up there with taser and pepper spray. I don't think anyone wants to be forcibly injected with an unknown substance. When Elijah said he's different, perhaps they could have asked how he's different? Is he autistic, does he suffer from anxiety and panic attacks? Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem.
- giantg2 6y ago
  "You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained." Pretty sure the ketamine was before cardiac arrest and brain death. Isn't that the claim - the ketamine caused those issues... "Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem." What mindset is that? What are you suggesting as an alternative once someone has started fighting, (reportedly) grabbing for a weapon, and continuing to struggle once restrained? It would be great if we had video to confirm that the injection was justified in this specific case. I would have also liked to see what the actions were leading up to the encounter.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    I think some of the confusion is people saying the hold killed him, but he appears to actually have regained consciousness after the hold, and was then given Ketamine, then shortly after the administration of Ketamine he went into cardiac arrest. If he was actually killed by the chokehold, then no way should someone be injecting Ketamine into someone unconscious or without pulse, especially under the guise of them resisting or being a threat. If he lost his pulse shortly after being administered too high a dose of Ketamine, then that kinda indicates Ketamine could have been a cause or contributed. Regarding mindset, while Elijah did resist, the transcript suggests he was eventually compliant and pleading with officers. > I can't breathe. I have my ID right here. My name is Elijah McClain. That's my house. I was just going home. I'm an introvert. I'm just different. That's all. I'm so sorry. I have no gun. I don't do that stuff. I don't do any fighting. Why are you attacking me? I don't even kill flies! I don't eat meat! But I don't judge people, I don't judge people who do eat meat. Forgive me. All I was trying to do was become better. I will do it. I will do anything. Sacrifice my identity, I'll do it. You all are phenomenal. You are beautiful and I love you. Try to forgive me. I'm a mood Gemini. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Ow, that really hurt! You are all very strong. Teamwork makes the dream work. Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to do that. I just can't breathe correctly. He was on the ground for an extended period of time and threatened with dogs. An officer determined his "need" for Ketamine before emergency medical personnel arrived, not the medical personnel themselves. The medical personnel then gave him overdose based on his actual body weight. The police tunnel visioned into the guy being whacked out on drugs, completely ignoring his pleas and explanations, and the medical personnel were complicit in unquestionably following orders of the officers and then administered an incorrect dosage of Ketamine. Police should consider they might be dealing with someone neurodivergent, that someone "acting suspiciously" might just be anxious or panicking, and may not actually be a criminal or on drugs. Fight or flight and adrenaline are a hell of a combo on their own.