7 ms·

Use of Ketamine is souring due to the death of Elijah McClain, so you should refrain from claiming it's safe. There is always risk when injecting someone with a

by Klinky 6y ago

Use of Ketamine is souring due to the death of Elijah McClain, so you should refrain from claiming it's safe. There is always risk when injecting someone with a chemical in an emergency or crisis situation. No doubt your job is tough and underpaid, but it sounds like your mindset is perfect to be complicit in acts of police brutality.

giantg2 6y ago
Ketamine is only used to prevent the use of more force or injury in scenarios where there is potential for higher levels of force or injury to be occur. It is a mitigating agent for higher levels of force.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Well, apart from in the Elijah McCain case; or do you mean that ketamine mitigates the willingness of the responders to use lethal force?
  - goodells 6y ago
    If someone doesn't get ketamine, the alternatives are: - they get tased, pepper sprayed, and thrown around by law enforcement officers - they get a less safe drug like midazolam, lorazepam, or haloperidol - they get restrained and fight against the restraints which puts them at risk of sudden death and rhabdomyolysis
    - mattkrause 6y ago
      ....if there’s a real, imminent threat. In some of these cases, it seems like the officers could have tried to de-escalate the situation while keeping these options in reserve in case that failed. The choices don’t have to be either immediate compliance or overwhelming force. Even with animals—-where the use of drugs is a lot less ethically fraught—-ketamine isn’t necessarily the first option.
      - goodells 6y ago
        Sure, the indications for using it can be clarified. EMS would go for chemical restraint (i.e. ketamine) for someone where "excited delirium" is suspected. This doesn't mean literally anyone being ornery with the police - and generally we aren't even involved in those calls. A person in a normal state of mind won't break their arms or dislocate their shoulders when they're put in handcuffs. Someone who took too much meth very easily could.
    - thatcat 6y ago
      In this case, it says they used 500 mg of ketamine in an injection, so basically they killed him with an excessive dose. Even though ketamine might have a higher LD50 you can't compare drugs without knowing the dose they are using. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
      - giantg2 6y ago
        True. Administering many drugs without the proper knowledge can be dangerous.
      - lstodd 6y ago
        500mg? Might as well just shoot (someone) in the head. Total unprofessionalism. "normal" dose would be something like 10-30mg
        goodells 6y ago
        My protocols for excited delirium say ketamine 100-200mg IV/IO or 200-400mg IM.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        It's worth noting "excited delirium" is a controversial diagnosis.
        thatcat 6y ago
        That doesn't sound like a very safe protocol to follow considering the max dose in a controlled environment for depression treatment is 1mg/kg.
- Klinky 6y ago
  Well for Elijah McClain it was either given after police suffocated him or directly contributed to his cardiac arrest. He apparently was restrained when it was delivered. This does not seem to jive with what you're saying. Were they planning to extra kill him if the Ketamine wasn't there?
  - giantg2 6y ago
    He can struggle while restrained, severely injuring himself, and even to the point of killing himself. Handcuffs are temporary restraints and a struggling individual can severely hurt themself or defeat them. Also, this scenario does jive with what I'm saying. Ketamine is generally safe. Would you rather have a shot of ketamine, mechanical disablement (multiple broken bones), or a shot of 9mm? These officers could have moved higher up the force continuum without the ketamine, even killing him in other ways (intentionally or accidentally). Are you saying tasers should never be used also? I believe the vascular restriction (that they shouldn't have used) is the reason he was brain dead.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained. I am not sure how Ketamine is at all a hero here, or helped provide an alternative to save Elijah McClain from excessive force by the police. If anything it may have complicated his chances of resuscitation, or possibly further contributed to his death. Forcible injection is up there with taser and pepper spray. I don't think anyone wants to be forcibly injected with an unknown substance. When Elijah said he's different, perhaps they could have asked how he's different? Is he autistic, does he suffer from anxiety and panic attacks? Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        "You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained." Pretty sure the ketamine was before cardiac arrest and brain death. Isn't that the claim - the ketamine caused those issues... "Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem." What mindset is that? What are you suggesting as an alternative once someone has started fighting, (reportedly) grabbing for a weapon, and continuing to struggle once restrained? It would be great if we had video to confirm that the injection was justified in this specific case. I would have also liked to see what the actions were leading up to the encounter.
bigbubba 6y ago
From what I understand of ketamine, it would take several grams to kill a man while Elijah was given half a gram (which was evidently more than he should have been given, but should still have been well short of lethal.) It seems to me he was killed by the chokehold. If somebody fed you a pot brownie then kicked you in the face, would you say weed broke your nose?
- Klinky 6y ago
  Do you think the Ketamine helped his chances of survival? Even at therapeutic levels drugs can cause adverse effects. Why are EMTs injecting Ketamine into effectively dead people at the behest of the police?
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    Ketamine not helping is not the same as ketamine killing. If paramedics had instead applied bandaids, those bandaids would not have helped him, but that's no reason to claim he was killed by bandaids. On one hand, you have cops trying to pull the man's head off, starving his brain of oxygen. On the other hand, you have a sedative that is renowned for being safe, administered in a quantity that should be safe a few times over. How in the world people look at this situation and blame ketamine instead of the cops is completely beyond me.
    - Klinky 6y ago
      In this case though it actually looks like he was given an overdose when considering his body weight, and he suffered the cardiac arrest enroute to the hospital, not on site. Coroner suggests drug reaction, the hold or asthma attack might have all played a role in the death. Also the recorded audio sounds like he was pleading with the officers and compliant, not that he needed further restraint or sedation.

by Klinky 6y ago

giantg2 6y ago

Ketamine is only used to prevent the use of more force or injury in scenarios where there is potential for higher levels of force or injury to be occur. It is a mitigating agent for higher levels of force.

pjc50 6y ago
Well, apart from in the Elijah McCain case; or do you mean that ketamine mitigates the willingness of the responders to use lethal force?
- goodells 6y ago
  If someone doesn't get ketamine, the alternatives are: - they get tased, pepper sprayed, and thrown around by law enforcement officers - they get a less safe drug like midazolam, lorazepam, or haloperidol - they get restrained and fight against the restraints which puts them at risk of sudden death and rhabdomyolysis
  - mattkrause 6y ago
    ....if there’s a real, imminent threat. In some of these cases, it seems like the officers could have tried to de-escalate the situation while keeping these options in reserve in case that failed. The choices don’t have to be either immediate compliance or overwhelming force. Even with animals—-where the use of drugs is a lot less ethically fraught—-ketamine isn’t necessarily the first option.
    - goodells 6y ago
      Sure, the indications for using it can be clarified. EMS would go for chemical restraint (i.e. ketamine) for someone where "excited delirium" is suspected. This doesn't mean literally anyone being ornery with the police - and generally we aren't even involved in those calls. A person in a normal state of mind won't break their arms or dislocate their shoulders when they're put in handcuffs. Someone who took too much meth very easily could.
  - thatcat 6y ago
    In this case, it says they used 500 mg of ketamine in an injection, so basically they killed him with an excessive dose. Even though ketamine might have a higher LD50 you can't compare drugs without knowing the dose they are using. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Elijah_McClain
    - giantg2 6y ago
      True. Administering many drugs without the proper knowledge can be dangerous.
    - lstodd 6y ago
      500mg? Might as well just shoot (someone) in the head. Total unprofessionalism. "normal" dose would be something like 10-30mg
      - goodells 6y ago
        My protocols for excited delirium say ketamine 100-200mg IV/IO or 200-400mg IM.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        It's worth noting "excited delirium" is a controversial diagnosis.
        thatcat 6y ago
        That doesn't sound like a very safe protocol to follow considering the max dose in a controlled environment for depression treatment is 1mg/kg.
Klinky 6y ago
Well for Elijah McClain it was either given after police suffocated him or directly contributed to his cardiac arrest. He apparently was restrained when it was delivered. This does not seem to jive with what you're saying. Were they planning to extra kill him if the Ketamine wasn't there?
- giantg2 6y ago
  He can struggle while restrained, severely injuring himself, and even to the point of killing himself. Handcuffs are temporary restraints and a struggling individual can severely hurt themself or defeat them. Also, this scenario does jive with what I'm saying. Ketamine is generally safe. Would you rather have a shot of ketamine, mechanical disablement (multiple broken bones), or a shot of 9mm? These officers could have moved higher up the force continuum without the ketamine, even killing him in other ways (intentionally or accidentally). Are you saying tasers should never be used also? I believe the vascular restriction (that they shouldn't have used) is the reason he was brain dead.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained. I am not sure how Ketamine is at all a hero here, or helped provide an alternative to save Elijah McClain from excessive force by the police. If anything it may have complicated his chances of resuscitation, or possibly further contributed to his death. Forcible injection is up there with taser and pepper spray. I don't think anyone wants to be forcibly injected with an unknown substance. When Elijah said he's different, perhaps they could have asked how he's different? Is he autistic, does he suffer from anxiety and panic attacks? Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      "You probably shouldn't inject Ketamine into someone who has suffered cardiac arrest or brain death after being forcibly restrained." Pretty sure the ketamine was before cardiac arrest and brain death. Isn't that the claim - the ketamine caused those issues... "Instead you suggest the only plausible alternatives to forced Ketamine injection is him getting his bones broken or 9mm bullet in his body. That mindset is exactly the problem." What mindset is that? What are you suggesting as an alternative once someone has started fighting, (reportedly) grabbing for a weapon, and continuing to struggle once restrained? It would be great if we had video to confirm that the injection was justified in this specific case. I would have also liked to see what the actions were leading up to the encounter.

bigbubba 6y ago

From what I understand of ketamine, it would take several grams to kill a man while Elijah was given half a gram (which was evidently more than he should have been given, but should still have been well short of lethal.) It seems to me he was killed by the chokehold. If somebody fed you a pot brownie then kicked you in the face, would you say weed broke your nose?

Klinky 6y ago
Do you think the Ketamine helped his chances of survival? Even at therapeutic levels drugs can cause adverse effects. Why are EMTs injecting Ketamine into effectively dead people at the behest of the police?
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Ketamine not helping is not the same as ketamine killing. If paramedics had instead applied bandaids, those bandaids would not have helped him, but that's no reason to claim he was killed by bandaids. On one hand, you have cops trying to pull the man's head off, starving his brain of oxygen. On the other hand, you have a sedative that is renowned for being safe, administered in a quantity that should be safe a few times over. How in the world people look at this situation and blame ketamine instead of the cops is completely beyond me.
  - Klinky 6y ago
    In this case though it actually looks like he was given an overdose when considering his body weight, and he suffered the cardiac arrest enroute to the hospital, not on site. Coroner suggests drug reaction, the hold or asthma attack might have all played a role in the death. Also the recorded audio sounds like he was pleading with the officers and compliant, not that he needed further restraint or sedation.